It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

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Aeneas
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by Aeneas » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:34 pm

"Kick your butt", I see... Could it be because noone actually cares to do that? Flaming - whether out of impatience of the users or from developers - is quite immature behaviour which by its own nature is punishment enough for the one who goes forward with it. So, if your post was a "bait", what shall I say - as much as your invitation might appeal to me, I must regretfully decline.

Another matter is constructive criticism, and I propose to follow that path.

The idea for declaring trunk builds "releases" - is there actually anything wrong with that? - Seriously, after all, whether you call it "release" or not during the alpha stage, does it truly matter (real question, no sarcasm)?

The point is that the releases are, as I understand it, mainly just points of discussion. You know, when two people test an application and get completely different results on THE SAME release, then it there is a much better basis for further discussion than "Application X fails on the trunk build of A, for you X works on B, and whether this second result depends on A or B or the configuration of X... we do not know actually."

EmuandCo
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by EmuandCo » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:42 pm

I did not flame. Try to imaging bein' me. Moderator of this forum and you see such topics all day long. Criticising your well known pals from the Chat who you know of that they do their best to get ROS further. And then THAT. Some guys saying we are to slow, stupids, badly skilled etcetcetc to get this done. I say them STFU and make it better. And that's what I did before. Btw, this is for all out there, not just Aeneas who seemingly sees a personal mention in that.
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ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Aeneas
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by Aeneas » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:52 pm

In this case, I have misunderstood you - please accept my apologies.

And I do not think your developers could be called stupid, after all the accomplishments so far. After all, you are not "at the beginning" for years and years... you may call it alpha, but it is - from my point of view - much more like a beta in other systems. It actually runs quite some software.

To me, this looks more like ... let us give an airplane equivalent: the Wright Flyer. Now imagine someone going to the Wright brothers and yelling at them "You are STUUUPID, you cannot even cross the Atlantic with this, you miserable wretches"... This would be entirely ridiculous. As to myself, I am just trying to see possibilities to make... something better than the Wright Flyer, but without being an engineer.

Actually, you are not any more quite Wright Flyer level (the OS Free project is that), I would rather call you mid-1916 to 1918 level, but you are not quite in the 1930s yet. Actually, when you get into the 1960s, from then until the 2000s it is not that spectacular any more, and people can already use your product.

vicmarcal
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by vicmarcal » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:50 am

EmuandCo wrote:Yeah, you got it. Most don't come here because they don't wanna mess with all that here. (That's the reason why none kicked my butt for my post yet btw ;-) )
/me kicks again and again Dreimi butt :)..

COM'ONNN GIMME ANOTHER BEER..

Remember Peace and LUV. :p
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Ubuntu
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by Ubuntu » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:26 am

Brilliant post! I agree 100%

Code: Select all

Deadlines are, in my view, a part of elementary self-discipline. If you do not keep deadlines, it means you do not pay any regard to your users and developers. If you are not transparent about the development, same thing. The only real difference between a commercial project and an idealistic project in this regard is that in the commercial project's deadlines are set by partly clueless management, so they are always way too early or way too late; here, the developers themselves set the deadlines. But once set they should be kept! - One of the reasons, I have heard, that e.g. Ubuntu is popular is actually also that they keep deadlines and people can RELY on that. One of the reasons Vista failed was that it was NOT on time. And one of the reasons Win7 has such a good name even BEFORE it is released to the broad public is that it will be on time. People just connect the notion of discipline to the notion of success.

Having a free OS on which you cannot rely is like having a car that will take you for free to work ... but it may come or may not come. Or like living in a flat for free... but being able to be thrown out at any moment. It is like an invitation to a free lunch that may or may not happen today. - At some point, its being "free" does not actually attract you any more, as it causes more disruption than it helps you. - To bring an example about ReactOS: I wanted to test several OSes (apart from my main one) on a hard disk which I prepared for that cause. I chose ReactOS shall go first, in its new release 0.3.11; 0.3.10 is already rather old, so my test results could be invalid for the new ReactOS. And? Instead of saying on the web-page that ReactOS will be late, there is STILL written that it may come out in September! That, naturally, disrupts my own plans, so that is why I actually gave up waiting for ReactOS yesterday, and put there Win7. I will not remove Win7 just because ReactOS comes out, surprisingly, at some unknown point in the future, maybe tomorrow, maybe in next June. I think that is not the optimum solution for ReactOS, either. If I knew WHEN it will come out, I could plan. But now I cannot. Just like many other people cannot make their plans.

As ReactOS is still alpha quality, I understand that there may be unforeseen circumstances which may arbitrary delay a release; that is why I believe the above criticism is not yet fully applicable to ReactOS. But if the "style" does not change, it definitely WILL be applicable. It would be like the BSD people who are just miserably wining about Linux, but actually, when they had the chance, they did not give a damn about the users that would be their later developers, and Linux is right now beating them hands down. (Yes, I prefer BSD, but let us face it.)

Now before there comes the reflex of criticism, please consider the following sentence, how true it is: "ReactOS, due to its transparancy, good financial management, clear progress and often and regular releases is permanently attracting users and developers and thus proceeding with great steps towards being an open source operating system that is a reliable alternative to Windows; its current status and organisation makes all involved parties proud to be part of it and enables them to contribute according to their best efforts." That sentence is surely quite true... but not "very" true, only "quite" true.

And please remove that "September". Just say 0.3.11 is on the way. "September" is actually embarassing - it is like a measurement of failure to be on time.

vicmarcal
Test Team
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by vicmarcal » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:18 am

Ubuntu wrote:Brilliant post! I agree 100%
Ubuntu, pay some devs as Ubuntu has(paid by Canonical), and you will have fixed deadlines ;)
There are 2 kind of FOSS software: With a supporting Company and without it. Ubuntu is the first one, ReactOS the latter one.
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Witch
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Re: It's 5th 10.2009. Where's 0.4.2?

Post by Witch » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:33 pm

I don't think people truly understands the difference between OS projects from another perspective aside from the above explanation.


Ubuntu was forked (copied) from Debian which was an operating system that was already fully functional. With a lot of experience under its belt.
All the heavy work had already been done in Ubuntu's case. That's why they can follow deadlines so easily.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames


Asking ReactOS to follow deadlines when the jumps isn't even in full integers is very nitpicky I think. It's not like ReactOS is jumping from version 1.0 to 2.0 and so forth and so on without telling anyone. The jumping being done is like ant jumps.
http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Roadmap


Sure it's not courteous of ReactOS to be fuzzy and unclear with its operations towards their fans and users. But until they've reached version 1.0 your're walking on bleeding edge technology. Nothing can be for certain.


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