Codes of Conduct discussion

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oldman
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Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by oldman »

Re: ReactOS Mattermost!
Post by EmuandCo » 09 Jul 2020 13:40
Now with 100% more Code of Conduct: https://reactos.org/wiki/Mattermost-CoC
Having read the above, I returned to Mattermost having previously avoided it because of the offensive language, but it is much the same as ever, language wise. I tolerated such demeaning words as "shit" and "fuck", but I do not like to see them, but when it comes to using any name for God as a exclamation, then that is offensive to me.
So now I no longer go into Mattermost, neither do I go to the Jira Dashboard for the same reason and if I see any offensive language here, then I am finished with the Forum. Which leaves me with only the front page of reactos.org and the wiki, where I have never seen any offensive words.
It is a pity because, I not only like to read about the development of ReactOS, but from time to time I have read something that gave me an idea for another Layman's guide.

Re: Code of Conduct
Post by dizt3mp3r » 30 Oct 2017 11:51
2. Can we please modify the code of conduct to include a rule regarding offensive or inappropriate coercive language and possibly some examples of terms to avoid - just a thought to avoid misunderstandings in future.
I agree with dizt3mp3r, that there should be some examples of words not to use, so as to guide people into using none offensive language.
And another thought is, that people signing up for an account at reactos.org, should have to agree to abide by the Code of Conduct.


Why are there 3 Codes of Conduct? There is one here in the forum, one in the wiki for Mattermost (this seems to be the same as for the forum) and a third one in the source code.
Why not just one universal code that covers all of the parts of reactos.org?


Who ever has the job of enforcing these codes, I say good luck to them, they will need to be very diplomatic in certain circumstances.
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Adcock
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by Adcock »

One thing, CoC should be applicable for Admins and Moderators too. [just saying]
If that can be done then you will get a clear picture of what should and should not be in CoC.
The problem is who is going to bell the cat? :D

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Yes, I'd agree to that, one of our admins does have an 'atomic' mode, ie. he does a very good job in general but can go to '11' on rare occasions when he is really riled... but I do believe we all ought to stick to the CoC wherever possible, admins or no.

With regard to the use of expletives - I tend to use more interesting adjectives rather than expletives as it is simply more fun. However, you have to realise there is a generation of Americans for which the use of expletives is part and parcel of their daily language, sh"t and feck are simply normal words to them - and those people being the majority of contributors to the internet in general means that this tendency is spreading everywhere.

We have some contributors that use this language to deliberate effect too, using this common usage as an excuse to be insulting. However, I tend to believe that we should only censor someone when they are using this tone to troll or bait or insult others directly, otherwise it can be ignored. Trolls in the end always expose themselves just give them time.

If you are going to use the forum or MM, you probably need to "man up". No point in raging against the storm or being offended by it. People are people and their expressive language is their own as long as they aren't provoking or being deliberately insulting. There is an old adage, "others cannot give offence, you can only take it".

With regard to the CoC - The reason there is more than one CoC is that the forum is the best place for the forum CoC to be found, and that is where it was originally created, it is there at the point of access for the forum and it applies specifically to the forum referring to its own structures &c. Lots of forums have their CoC displayed in that way.

Having another on the wiki for Mattermost means that it can be modified or updated at any time, I created it so that it would be applicable to MM specifically, we don't want any arguments from clever MM users saying the CoC for the forum doesn't apply to them! Obviously, I cannot modify posts on the forum so I cannot keep it updated, the Wiki is the place for such a document as MM is not a useful document storage system.

We could easily bring the three together but for the moment I seem to be maintaining the MM CoC because I can, EmuandCo maintains that for the forum as it is the right place. The other? I don't know, doesn't worry me.
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by EmuandCo »

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:50 pm
Yes, I'd agree to that, one of our admins does have an 'atomic' mode, ie. he does a very good job in general but can go to '11' on rare occasions when he is really riled... but I do believe we all ought to stick to the CoC wherever possible, admins or no.
Hmmm, who could be that one ^^

Anyways, I am all for banishing real insults. If the words are used for common speech, I will not do anything of course.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

No criticism of you intended, Being a moderator is not an easy task and you can receive flak for whatever decision you take. Some of those get overturned and the whole role leads to frustration. That is understood. In some ways it is useful having someone who can go to 11, to go atomic - but only when it is really needed. :)

Oldman, to answer one of your comments, the two CoCs are different, they are similar because CoCs tend to have the same content, however, one is maturing and has tried to cover more bases. There is a possibility of keeping them in 'tune' but that all depends upon someone taking on that responsibility and more importantly having the community agree to the contents. I may have created the MM CoC document but it is not 'my' document, I just maintain it. The sentiments in that document reflect the agreed position of the community with regard to personal conduct otherwise they wouldn't be there.
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oldman
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by oldman »

dizt3mp3r » 31 Jul 2020 10:50
If you are going to use the forum or MM, you probably need to "man up".
It is not a case of a need to "man up", but a matter of principle. I am not going to lower my principles just because the rest of the world gets more and more depraved.

I turned from being a lemming almost 5 decades ago and I am not going to change back.

From what EmuandCo has written, things will not change, so this is no place for me.
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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Well actually, turning your back on reality due to your own sensitivity is definitely not 'manning up' and facing it. The world won't know it is lesser due to your absence and it won't change due to it. Rage against the storm by all means but meakly turning away? That is not the braver approach and no example will be set by it whereas one could have been set by your continued presence and the example you set.

On the internet you choose to discourse with those you would not normally bear to have a discussion with, if you want to use the internet at all then that is a commitment you have already made. It is much the same as walking down any street, walking into a pub and chatting to the nearest man you meet about any subject of your choosing. Don't expect scintillating conversation, don't expect sense and don't expect his morals to be the same as yours.

Half the people typing here are doing so sitting, unwashed in their underpants, scratching their testicles. That might put a different picture to it all.
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by EmuandCo »

Sorry to hear that, but in that case I cannot help you.

The world more and more becomes a place of people complaining about everything and anything.
They complain about some fake news and fake numbers and then put a whole country to a waste. (#blacklivesmatter <<<<< #alllivesmatter !)
They attack the right of free speech as soon as you dare to not swim with the mainstream opinion, they force you to leave any function you might have had and call you a nazi and a racist. What for? Well, you did dare to tell the truth these leftist greenish DIRT does not wanna see, even if you throw the facts directly at them and cause them to swallow these facts almost suffocating on them.
People start to attack great characters from the past for their opinions and ideals which are not the ugly degenerated ones we have today. Personaltites that gave us knowledge and wealth, people that were world class artists or musicians, all their involvement is burnt down because of these dumbasses on legs.
People are taught from the mentioned DIRT to hate their country !! IN SCHOOL !! and to do everything to make it go down. Why? Nationalism is toxic they say. DIRT belief is the real toxine we have today I say!

These and WAY more I will not add here now are the reasons why I still believe in free speech. (I am a nazi according to many ppl, too ^^)
Free speech includes free choice of words. As long as these are not used in a way to directly insult someone else, I will NOT disallow their general use! NEVER.

So two ways we have here. First is: You can live with the facts or second: You can leave, which would be sad indeed, but cannot be changed then.
I will NOT allow any 'one person feels offended out of NO reason and thousands have to act differently because of that' in here.

Sorry, this is the most diplomatic way I can say that, I had too much hassle with that DIRT already to be neutral in my opinion. Checking the news before that post was not very helpful either. And yes, my case here is a perfect example of what I would not allow in here. I know that, but here the wording was needed to express my feelings and opinion. Feel free to ban me for that!
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

11 :)
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oldman
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by oldman »

I have now installed a profanity filter which helps and if the project desires, there is a profanity filter for Mattermost.
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

I wish there was a filter to remove annoying people or views from all chats (not referring to anyone in particular) as I'd definitely have that.
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by middings »

I feel oldman's pain. My personal rule is to avoid using words here that if I found them in a term paper written for a university STEM class then I'd give that student a lower mark.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by dizt3mp3r »

When I write something, I am 'writing' it and so it becomes 'official'. That is an experience from the days of letter writing and memo.s, so I don't swear and I try to keep civil.

Most these days are brought up on text chat, something we old men did not experience when we were originally taught to write. The more modern types write how they think and thus it is just an expression of thought. It is full of poor grammar, mistakes and expletives as a result.

Quite often, very little thought goes into what they are going to say and they may not consider the thoughts or sensitivities of the recipient. They may not be written for a specific individual at all but the thoughts are just a broadcast, so don't take it personally. That is just the way it is. You either get used to it and you can set an example by better behaviour or you can rage/run away. Choose your path.
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minecraftchest1
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by minecraftchest1 »

Not to be offensive, but I have been told that there is often many nice ways of saying the same thing as most expletives. I agree that lots of Americans have a vocabulary full of expletives. In my opinion, if someone mostly uses expletives, they can learn more English.
I also agree that expletives can be insulting to some people. IMHO, the best way we could put this in the CoC is to say "Be civil." I feel that we could also add "Expletives can be insulting to some people. Please be mindful of other people when talking."
We can politely remind people of this if they do use a expletive, but remember to be civil. You could suggest alternative words if you like, but please don't be rude.
Just my 2cents.
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Re: Codes of Conduct discussion

Post by Missingno50 »

minecraftchest1 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:51 am
In my opinion, if someone mostly uses expletives, they can learn more English.
I also agree that expletives can be insulting to some people. ... I feel that we could also add "Expletives can be insulting to some people. Please be mindful of other people when talking."
Yeah, I can agree to this, but I feel like "Be civil" is a little too vague, and "don't use expletives" is a bit... Well I hate using this word because of the connotation, but the only fitting word here is "problematic at best". What could be considered a swear to many may not be a swear to some. Incoming large rant I had to separate because I got way more emotionally invested than I meant to.

Id est, spastic, which is a TERRIBLE slur for the mentally disabled in British English, but doesn't exactly hold that kind of expletive connotation in American English. Another exempli gratia moment would be the word bitch, which could mean the slur, OR it could mean its original term of pregnant female dog(and yes it's still a term quite often used in dog breeding. Source:My mom's friend who breeds Great Danes.)
I don't treat the great guy in the sky and the savior with nearly the same respect as those who do a religion that prays to them every Sunday. And what about Satanism? I can't speak for them but followers of Satanism probably don't take too kindly to God being elevated while Satan is downgraded. When do we stop this? Where's the limit? If we try to ban EVERY expletive, we'll end up with maybe 100 words left to express ourselves and try to explain complex ideas. I mean for Saint Pete's sake, they count slave/master as swears on Twitter now, and eventually that's going to normalize into the population and I'm going to cry, but for now take it as a hypothetical. What about Gimp? It's both a photo editing program and a swear in some form of English!
Because expletives are often an, for lack of a better term, expression of one self, it's VERY hard to actually deny them that right to express themselves. I get the idea, but it's just misguided in my opinion, and will only lead to major problems this program cannot afford, monetarily and time wise. There is really no reason to create a CoC over this. Just let people be themselves, and if you have a problem, try to tell them to cool it themselves. If they say no, then they probably don't care, and neither should you in the end, because you don't probably have never met them in real life. It might hurt, it might your blood, but what are you going to do about it? They'll just find some way around the CoC if they're willing to try to get around certain terms, or they may leave, at which point the team might've just lost some really good talent over someone not exactly contributing much other than feeling mildly hurt by a swear. At least they're not breaking a law and crushing your face with a nice, newly made brick found on the streets of Chicago until the remains of your brain are dribbling out of a new third ear.

End of rant. Additionally, expletives used at the right time can alleviate stress or be really comedic, and there's also that study that shows those who swear more often are often times more honest than those who just hold their tongue. That last part was just interesting to me, it probably holds no relevance here.
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