Greek translation

Discuss translation of both ReactOS and the website here.

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justincase
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:47 am

Black_Fox wrote:A thing that I can see everyday even without using the Dutch translation is the missing country flag in the list. It looks like famfamfam flags are used - with modified Great Britain flag :-)
Actually they are famfamfam flags, and the "Great Britain" flag used here is called the "United Kingdom" flag on http://flag-sprites.com
Webunny wrote:
Black_Fox wrote:A thing that I can see everyday even without using the Dutch translation is the missing country flag in the list. It looks like famfamfam flags are used - with modified Great Britain flag :-)
I already pointed that out at the end here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12925&start=15#p107289
So, what? Black_Fox isn't allowed to mention it in the currently more active thread where such issues are being discussed?
Webunny wrote:Could one at least not get a module which presents it a bit better? I dunno if it's Drupal, but I seem to remeber some CMS where you could easily swap or add new modules, that had a pretty big effect on how things were done, or at least, visualised and presented. Could have been Joomla instead of drupal, though. Anyway: not gonna happen this year, I read ya.
Yes & No, It's fairly easy to install/enable/disable/remove Drupal Modules, but transferring all that translated content from one module to another could easily be a huge job, plus there's a fairly small number of interactive (human) translation modules (as opposed to machine translation, like Google Translate, Babelfish, etc) for Drupal, and most of those aren't really complete (unless things have changed quite a bit for Drupal Translation Modules since I last used Drupal).

@Z98: Regarding the Flags
I went over to flag-sprites.com and generated a new flags.png that includes Greece & The Netherlands.
Image
If you tell me what abbreviation you plan on using for Greek I can post the CSS to go with it too, of the 'normal' ones I see from a quick glance around the net "gr" and "el" seem the most likely candidates, but which are you going to use? (assuming Crackez accepts your deal that is.)

Edit
@Z98 After a little more digging (specifically into the current state of Drupals (now mostly built into core) Translation system) I'm going to assume "el" will be used, as this is what is used on localize.drupal.org, so here's the CSS to use on the site:
(based on & meant to replace the similar block of CSS which starts at line 458 of themes/zen_reactos/css/reactos-style.css)

Code: Select all

/* for more languages see http://flag-sprites.com/en_US/ */

li.zh-hans:before,li.de:before,li.fr:before,li.en:before,li.el:before,li.it:before,li.ja:before,li.ko:before,li.nl:before,li.es:before,li.pl:before,li.ru:before,li.sv:before,li.zh-hant:before{background:url(../images/flags.png) no-repeat;content:" ";width:16px;height:11px;display:inline-block;margin-right:12px;}
li.zh-hans:before{background-position:-16px 0;}
li.de:before{background-position:-32px 0;}
li.es:before{background-position:-48px 0;}
li.fr:before{background-position:0 -11px;}
li.en:before{background-position:-16px -11px;}
li.el:before{background-position:-32px -11px}
li.it:before{background-position:-48px -11px;}
li.ja:before{background-position:0 -22px}
li.ko:before{background-position:-16px -22px}
li.nl:before{background-position:-32px -22px}
li.pl:before{background-position:-48px -22px}
li.ru:before{background-position:0 -33px}
li.sv:before{background-position:-16px -33px}
li.zh-hant:before{background-position:-32px -33px}
Using this flags.png & block of CSS in the place of the current ones and adding the Greek (ελληνικά) language to the list of translated languages should make the list look like this.
ImageAgain this assumes that Crackez accepts the deal.

Another Edit
Replaced the screenshot with one that has a capital Εpsilon.
Last edited by justincase on Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Black_Fox
Posts: 1584
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:44 pm
Location: Czechia

Re: Greek translation

Post by Black_Fox » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:23 pm

@justincase, this is pretty cool! Maybe it would be worth creating Jira ONLINE-xyz issue (after @crakez lets us know his decision), so that it doesn't get buried.

crackez
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:17 am

Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:56 pm

@Webunny I'm do own a BSc(Hons) Computing degree (Computer Science), I do know a bit more than plain html(heck I knew html before uni :P) - About Ελληνικά, the 1st letter of each language is with capital, why Greek is with small one is beyond me :-} | Microsoft usually has el-gr for Greek, dunno where the el comes from, maybe from Greeklish(Greek with latin characters Ellinika thus ell or el) BUT these are found when you search deep, tray icon still says GR and if you find a shortcut for Greece/Greek it's always GR, thing of el-gr as internal name or if you dl an iso file from MS ..you'll see the el-gr in the end(same applies to update packages)-I still have access to msdn from my university student account(although I'm no longer a uni student - that time has passed long time ago). Also Greece can be written Hellas bear that in mind

@Z98 You say I told I told all the time but I fail to see what you said, are you sure you were in the same topic? P.S. I see no pm's either :? no disrespect man but what's bugging you? where is the problem? :roll:

justincase
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:12 pm

crackez wrote:About Ελληνικά, the 1st letter of each language is with capital, why Greek is with small one is beyond me :-}
Sorry about that, I just googled Greek in Greek copy, pasted, took a screenshot. When translations are added to the website they'll be properly capitalized.
crackez wrote:Microsoft usually has el-gr for Greek, dunno where the el comes from, maybe from Greeklish(Greek with latin characters Ellinika thus ell or el)
Yeah, that's usually called romanized, and that's where lots of the abbreviations come from.
It doesn't matter what Microsoft uses, what matters is what Drupal uses.
@Z98 You say I told I told all the time but I fail to see what you said, are you sure you weredon the same topic? P.S. I see no pm's either :? no disrespect man but what's bugging you? where is the problem? :roll:
Did you read the whole thread?
Z98 wrote:@crackez, the issue is not whether you can be trusted as a translator, the issue is whether we want to have any Greek translations at all. Each new translation set means an additional set of content that might need to be manually moved if we have another site migration, which is actually very possible if the drupal modules we use do not provide a clean upgrade to drupal 8. If you feel that strongly about having Greek present, then here's the deal. If we ever do another manual migration, you will be responsible for getting the Greek content migrated over, with the understanding that if you do not perform the migration, the content will get dropped.
(emphasis added)
justincase wrote:I think at this point Z98 just needs to see you say something along the lines of "OK, I accept your deal. If the ReactOS website is ever manually migrated again, I will be responsible for getting the Greek content migrated over, with the understanding that if I do not perform the migration, the content will get dropped."
At least that's how I understood it.
So, Do you accept the deal?
If so I'll fix the screenshot and make a JIRA issue for the flags once I'm back at a computer.
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:57 pm

justincase wrote:
Webunny wrote:
Black_Fox wrote:A thing that I can see everyday even without using the Dutch translation is the missing country flag in the list. It looks like famfamfam flags are used - with modified Great Britain flag :-)
I already pointed that out at the end here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12925&start=15#p107289
So, what? Black_Fox isn't allowed to mention it in the currently more active thread where such issues are being discussed?
?

I don't even understand the reasoning of that question. How would stating a factual observation indicate one doesn't allow anyone else to say whatever he/she wants?

I merely indicated that I had seen the lack of a flag before and that the devs/PR are already aware of it.

I don't see the relevance of it, but in principle, since I'm a libertarian at heart, everyone can say the heck (s)he wants. As can I. Black_fox has my blessing - not that he needed it to begin with - for reiterating the absence of that flag a googleplex times. It's still doesn't change the fact I already mentioned that before, and that the devs/PR should already be aware of it, though.


Webunny wrote:Could one at least not get a module which presents it a bit better? I dunno if it's Drupal, but I seem to remeber some CMS where you could easily swap or add new modules, that had a pretty big effect on how things were done, or at least, visualised and presented. Could have been Joomla instead of drupal, though. Anyway: not gonna happen this year, I read ya.
Yes & No, It's fairly easy to install/enable/disable/remove Drupal Modules, but transferring all that translated content from one module to another could easily be a huge job, plus there's a fairly small number of interactive (human) translation modules (as opposed to machine translation, like Google Translate, Babelfish, etc) for Drupal, and most of those aren't really complete (unless things have changed quite a bit for Drupal Translation Modules since I last used Drupal).

@Z98: Regarding the Flags
I went over to flag-sprites.com and generated a new flags.png that includes Greece & The Netherlands.
Image
If you tell me what abbreviation you plan on using for Greek I can post the CSS to go with it too, of the 'normal' ones I see from a quick glance around the net "gr" and "el" seem the most likely candidates, but which are you going to use? (assuming Crackez accepts your deal that is.)

Edit
@Z98 After a little more digging (specifically into the current state of Drupals (now mostly built into core) Translation system) I'm going to assume "el" will be used, as this is what is used on localize.drupal.org, so here's the CSS to use on the site:
(based on & meant to replace the similar block of CSS which starts at line 458 of themes/zen_reactos/css/reactos-style.css)

Code: Select all

/* for more languages see http://flag-sprites.com/en_US/ */

li.zh-hans:before,li.de:before,li.fr:before,li.en:before,li.el:before,li.it:before,li.ja:before,li.ko:before,li.nl:before,li.es:before,li.pl:before,li.ru:before,li.sv:before,li.zh-hant:before{background:url(../images/flags.png) no-repeat;content:" ";width:16px;height:11px;display:inline-block;margin-right:12px;}
li.zh-hans:before{background-position:-16px 0;}
li.de:before{background-position:-32px 0;}
li.es:before{background-position:-48px 0;}
li.fr:before{background-position:0 -11px;}
li.en:before{background-position:-16px -11px;}
li.el:before{background-position:-32px -11px}
li.it:before{background-position:-48px -11px;}
li.ja:before{background-position:0 -22px}
li.ko:before{background-position:-16px -22px}
li.nl:before{background-position:-32px -22px}
li.pl:before{background-position:-48px -22px}
li.ru:before{background-position:0 -33px}
li.sv:before{background-position:-16px -33px}
li.zh-hant:before{background-position:-32px -33px}
Using this flags.png & block of CSS in the place of the current ones and adding the Greek (ελληνικά) language to the list of translated languages should make the list look like this.
ImageAgain this assumes that Crackez accepts the deal.
Strictly spoken, nl isn't the official language of only the Netherlands, but I guess logic would indicate we go for the largest community (as a country). (Though in that case, it would have to be the USA flag instead of the union jack for English.)

I had to search to find this deal, but I guess you mean this: "If you feel that strongly about having Greek present, then here's the deal. If we ever do another manual migration, you will be responsible for getting the Greek content migrated over, with the understanding that if you do not perform the migration, the content will get dropped."

So, Crackez; it seems you can do a translation after all. It's just conditional (see the "if's"). What do you say?

justincase
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:39 pm

Webunny wrote:
justincase wrote:So, what? Black_Fox isn't allowed to mention it in the currently more active thread where such issues are being discussed?
?

I don't even understand the reasoning of that question. How would stating a factual observation indicate one doesn't allow anyone else to say whatever he/she wants?

I merely indicated that I had seen the lack of a flag before and that the devs/PR are already aware of it.

I don't see the relevance of it, but in principle, since I'm a libertarian at heart, everyone can say the heck (s)he wants. As can I. Black_fox has my blessing - not that he needed it to begin with - for reiterating the absence of that flag a googleplex times. It's still doesn't change the fact I already mentioned that before, and that the devs/PR should already be aware of it, though.
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously that anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue. The point was to question why you felt the need to link the previous mention of the issue, when it was not addressed, or even mentioned a second time in that location. I did not actually expect a response, it was more like a side-note to you.
Webunny wrote:Strictly spoken, nl isn't the official language of only the Netherlands, but I guess logic would indicate we go for the largest community (as a country). (Though in that case, it would have to be the USA flag instead of the union jack for English.)
nl is the ISO 639-1 language code for Dutch (taken from "Nederlands", which is, from what I can tell, the Dutch name for the Dutch language), and from what I can find on the internet, Dutch (nl) is the official language of "The Netherlands" as well as the 'de-facto official language' of "The Kingdom of the Netherlands". If this is not the case, please enlighten me as to what the official language of the Netherlands really is.

As far as English goes, basically everyone who speaks English can recognise the American flag or the British flag as a representation (in this context) of the English language (though they might assume that it indicates using American English or British English respectively) and will easily know that it should get them to a page they can understand. Add that to the fact that the page defaults to English, so most English speakers won't even bother with the Languages box and you find that it's really up to the people behind the site which one they'll use. (The Union Jack was there before I touched anything, and I like it there, so I'm not going to suggest changing it.)
Webunny wrote:I had to search to find this deal, but I guess you mean this: "If you feel that strongly about having Greek present, then here's the deal. If we ever do another manual migration, you will be responsible for getting the Greek content migrated over, with the understanding that if you do not perform the migration, the content will get dropped."
Yes I meant that deal, and you shouldn't have "had to search" for it, seeing as I quoted it almost every time I mentioned it. (not that there's anything wrong with searching for it. Ctrl+F is your friend ;))
Webunny wrote:So, Crackez; it seems you can do a translation after all. It's just conditional (see the "if's"). What do you say?
That's why I kept ending each post with a mention of 'the deal', hoping Crackez will see it, and respond.

So Crackez,
What do you say? Do you take on the responsibility Z98 has offered you? (this is a link to the original post where the "deal" was layed out, please read the second paragraph (addressed to you) carefully)
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:13 pm

justincase wrote:
Webunny wrote:
justincase wrote:So, what? Black_Fox isn't allowed to mention it in the currently more active thread where such issues are being discussed?
?

I don't even understand the reasoning of that question. How would stating a factual observation indicate one doesn't allow anyone else to say whatever he/she wants?

I merely indicated that I had seen the lack of a flag before and that the devs/PR are already aware of it.

I don't see the relevance of it, but in principle, since I'm a libertarian at heart, everyone can say the heck (s)he wants. As can I. Black_fox has my blessing - not that he needed it to begin with - for reiterating the absence of that flag a googleplex times. It's still doesn't change the fact I already mentioned that before, and that the devs/PR should already be aware of it, though.
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously that anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue. The point was to question why you felt the need to link the previous mention of the issue, when it was not addressed, or even mentioned a second time in that location. I did not actually expect a response, it was more like a side-note to you.
While a rhetorical question is not posed to elicit a specific answer, it is still asked in order to make a point; aka; it is done with a reason. As said, I do not understand the reason behind yours, unless you actually thought I was of the opinion that somebody *doesn't* have the right to say something again. In which case, you thought wrongly. I can't help but suspect that the point you were trying to make was most likely based on projection or at least a wrong interpretation. Otherwise, the complete lack of relevance would be absurd.

person 1:"I think it's going to rain Friday."
person 2:"I thought the same thing."
person 1:"What, you mean I can't think anymore it's going to rain because you thought so before too?!"
person 2:"Ermmm..." ???

That question may be a rhetorical question, but it still makes no sense to ask it. Saying "The point was to question why you felt the need to say you thought the same thing in the past" doesn't explain the reaction in the least. It implies one can't say (or link to) something similar, while the one saying it is repeating it in the first place. I do not subscribe to that (rather contradictory) premise.
Webunny wrote:Strictly spoken, nl isn't the official language of only the Netherlands, but I guess logic would indicate we go for the largest community (as a country). (Though in that case, it would have to be the USA flag instead of the union jack for English.)
nl is the ISO 639-1 language code for Dutch (taken from "Nederlands", which is, from what I can tell, the Dutch name for the Dutch language), and from what I can find on the internet, Dutch (nl) is the official language of "The Netherlands" as well as the 'de-facto official language' of "The Kingdom of the Netherlands". If this is not the case, please enlighten me as to what the official language of the Netherlands really is.
You have to read a bit more carefully. Since your last part is not relevant because of it, again. Note the 'only'. You're completely barking up the wrong tree here, because you missed that. Saying 'Dutch isn't the language of the Netherlands' or saying 'Dutch isn't the language of ONLY the Netherlands" are two entirely different things. You make a whole paragraph arguing against the first, while that has no bearing on what I said, which is the latter.

As far as English goes, basically everyone who speaks English can recognise the American flag or the British flag as a representation (in this context) of the English language (though they might assume that it indicates using American English or British English respectively) and will easily know that it should get them to a page they can understand. Add that to the fact that the page defaults to English, so most English speakers won't even bother with the Languages box and you find that it's really up to the people behind the site which one they'll use. (The Union Jack was there before I touched anything, and I like it there, so I'm not going to suggest changing it.)
I wasn't suggesting of changing it. I was just pondering on what basis one should best (aka, most logically) choose the flag of which country.
Webunny wrote:I had to search to find this deal, but I guess you mean this: "If you feel that strongly about having Greek present, then here's the deal. If we ever do another manual migration, you will be responsible for getting the Greek content migrated over, with the understanding that if you do not perform the migration, the content will get dropped."
Yes I meant that deal, and you shouldn't have "had to search" for it, seeing as I quoted it almost every time I mentioned it. (not that there's anything wrong with searching for it. Ctrl+F is your friend ;))
So, what? I am not allowed to search for the original anymore and mention/quote it again, even when you said yourself there is nothing wrong with it?*

----> See how easy (and nonsensical) it is?*


*Both are rhetorical questions too.
Webunny wrote:So, Crackez; it seems you can do a translation after all. It's just conditional (see the "if's"). What do you say?
That's why I kept ending each post with a mention of 'the deal', hoping Crackez will see it, and respond.

So Crackez,
What do you say? Do you take on the responsibility Z98 has offered you? (this is a link to the original post where the "deal" was layed out, please read the second paragraph (addressed to you) carefully)
Yes, Crackez, what do you say? Now that has been firmly established one can re-re-reiterate everything, without it meaning another can't do the same, feel free to wade through posts that say and ask the same things over and over again. :?
Last edited by Webunny on Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

justincase
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:52 pm

Webunny wrote:I don't even understand the reasoning of that question. How would stating a factual observation indicate one doesn't allow anyone else to say whatever he/she wants?
justincase wrote:It was a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously that anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue. The point was to question why you felt the need to link the previous mention of the issue, when it was not addressed, or even mentioned a second time in that location. I did not actually expect a response, it was more like a side-note to you.
Webunny wrote:While a rhetorical question is not posed to elicit a specific answer, it is still asked in order to make a point; aka; it is done with a reason. As said, I do not understand the reason behind yours, unless you actually thought I was of the opinion that somebody *doesn't* have the right to say something again.
My response was an explanation of my reasoning. Why did this have to be brought up again? (note this is also a rhetorical question)
Webunny wrote:I can't help but notice that the point you were trying to make was most likely based on projection or at least a wrong interpretation. Otherwise, the complete lack of relevance would be absurd.
The point was not based on a wrong interpretation, but rather that I thought that due to the way you said it it could easily be misinterpreted by others, which could get offended, etc. I was trying to 'nip it in the bud'. (yeah, that worked well didn't it? ... rhetorical again)
Webunny wrote:person 1:"I think it's going to rain Friday."
person 2:"I thought the same thing."
person 1:"What, you mean I can't think anymore it's going to rain because you thought so before too?!"
person 2:"Ermmm..." ???
If you'd said, 'Yeah, I noticed that too. Can anything be done about it?' (or something along those lines) I would not have felt any need to mention it.
What you said however was "I already pointed that out ..." which could easily be misread to be a 'why did you bother posting that, I already did'.
Figuring that you did NOT mean it that way, I wanted to put up something light which would illicit nothing more than perhaps a 'lol' or two. (foiled again.)

At this point I'm done with this misunderstanding. I've done my best to explain why I said what I said, and I don't want this to become another of those long-winded mostly-off-topic threads that have a tendency to crop up lately.

Back to the topic of translations
Webunny wrote:Note the 'only'. You're completely barking up the wrong tree here, because you missed that. Saying 'Dutch isn't the language of the Netherlands' or saying 'Dutch isn't the language of ONLY the Netherlands" are two entirely different things. You make a whole paragraph arguing agianst the first, while that has no bearing on what I said.
Sorry, totally my fault. That only makes quite the difference doesn't it? (rhetorical)
justincase wrote:As far as English goes, ...
Webunny wrote:I wasn't suggesting of changing it. I was just pondering on what basis one should best (aka, most logically) choose the flag of which country.
Sorry, I guess I read a little far between the lines, either way I hope my points about the main requirement being that the flag associated with a language be recognizable to native speakers of the language in question was helpful to you and/or others.
Webunny wrote:
justincase wrote:Yes I meant that deal, and you shouldn't have "had to search" for it, seeing as I quoted it almost every time I mentioned it. ( for it. Ctrl+F is your friend ;))
So, what? I am not allowed to search for the original anymore and mention/quote it again?*

----> See how easy (and nonsensical) it is?*


*Both are rhetorical questions too.
You're either trying to provoke me or trying to be funny. I'll assume the latter as I think I was pretty self-explanatory with the whole "not that there's anything wrong with searching ...", and leave it at that. ho ho ho.
Webunny wrote:So, Crackez; it seems you can do a translation after all. It's just conditional (see the "if's"). What do you say?
justincase wrote:That's why I kept ending each post with a mention of 'the deal', hoping Crackez will see it, and respond.

So Crackez,
What do you say? Do you take on the responsibility Z98 has offered you? (this is a link to the original post where the "deal" was layed out, please read the second paragraph (addressed to you) carefully)
Webunny wrote:Yes, Crackez, what do you say? Now that has been firmly established one can re-re-reiterate everything, without it meaning another can't do the same, feel free to wade through posts that say and ask the same things over and over again. :?
Wow I think this re-...-re-iterating is getting a little out of hand, let's take a break and wait for Crackez.
Crackez? What do you think of "the deal"? Are you in?
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:23 pm

justincase wrote:
Webunny wrote:I don't even understand the reasoning of that question. How would stating a factual observation indicate one doesn't allow anyone else to say whatever he/she wants?
justincase wrote:It was a rhetorical question. The answer is obviously that anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue. The point was to question why you felt the need to link the previous mention of the issue, when it was not addressed, or even mentioned a second time in that location. I did not actually expect a response, it was more like a side-note to you.
Webunny wrote:While a rhetorical question is not posed to elicit a specific answer, it is still asked in order to make a point; aka; it is done with a reason. As said, I do not understand the reason behind yours, unless you actually thought I was of the opinion that somebody *doesn't* have the right to say something again.
My response was an explanation of my reasoning. Why did this have to be brought up again? (note this is also a rhetorical question)
Webunny wrote:I can't help but notice that the point you were trying to make was most likely based on projection or at least a wrong interpretation. Otherwise, the complete lack of relevance would be absurd.
The point was not based on a wrong interpretation, but rather that I thought that due to the way you said it it could easily be misinterpreted by others, which could get offended, etc. I was trying to 'nip it in the bud'. (yeah, that worked well didn't it? ... rhetorical again)
Webunny wrote:person 1:"I think it's going to rain Friday."
person 2:"I thought the same thing."
person 1:"What, you mean I can't think anymore it's going to rain because you thought so before too?!"
person 2:"Ermmm..." ???
If you'd said, 'Yeah, I noticed that too. Can anything be done about it?' (or something along those lines) I would not have felt any need to mention it.
What you said however was "I already pointed that out ..." which could easily be misread to be a 'why did you bother posting that, I already did'.
Figuring that you did NOT mean it that way, I wanted to put up something light which would illicit nothing more than perhaps a 'lol' or two. (foiled again.)

At this point I'm done with this misunderstanding. I've done my best to explain why I said what I said, and I don't want this to become another of those long-winded mostly-off-topic threads that have a tendency to crop up lately.

Back to the topic of translations
Webunny wrote:Note the 'only'. You're completely barking up the wrong tree here, because you missed that. Saying 'Dutch isn't the language of the Netherlands' or saying 'Dutch isn't the language of ONLY the Netherlands" are two entirely different things. You make a whole paragraph arguing agianst the first, while that has no bearing on what I said.
Sorry, totally my fault. That only makes quite the difference doesn't it? (rhetorical)
justincase wrote:As far as English goes, ...
Webunny wrote:I wasn't suggesting of changing it. I was just pondering on what basis one should best (aka, most logically) choose the flag of which country.
Sorry, I guess I read a little far between the lines, either way I hope my points about the main requirement being that the flag associated with a language be recognizable to native speakers of the language in question was helpful to you and/or others.
Webunny wrote:
justincase wrote:Yes I meant that deal, and you shouldn't have "had to search" for it, seeing as I quoted it almost every time I mentioned it. ( for it. Ctrl+F is your friend ;))
So, what? I am not allowed to search for the original anymore and mention/quote it again?*

----> See how easy (and nonsensical) it is?*


*Both are rhetorical questions too.
You're either trying to provoke me or trying to be funny. I'll assume the latter as I think I was pretty self-explanatory with the whole "not that there's anything wrong with searching ...", and leave it at that. ho ho ho.
Webunny wrote:So, Crackez; it seems you can do a translation after all. It's just conditional (see the "if's"). What do you say?
justincase wrote:That's why I kept ending each post with a mention of 'the deal', hoping Crackez will see it, and respond.

So Crackez,
What do you say? Do you take on the responsibility Z98 has offered you? (this is a link to the original post where the "deal" was layed out, please read the second paragraph (addressed to you) carefully)
Webunny wrote:Yes, Crackez, what do you say? Now that has been firmly established one can re-re-reiterate everything, without it meaning another can't do the same, feel free to wade through posts that say and ask the same things over and over again. :?
Wow I think this re-...-re-iterating is getting a little out of hand, let's take a break and wait for Crackez.
Crackez? What do you think of "the deal"? Are you in?
Your first two given reasons do not explain anything, at least not really. Unless you DO start with a misconception or contradictory premise. "The point was to question why you felt the need to link the previous mention of the issue"; can I then, in turn, ask why you felt the need to question why I felt the need to link to the previous mention of an issue? The whole reasoning given up until that point, is extremely contradictory. For instance, you also say "The answer is obviously that anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue." ...if everyone is allowed to remind people of a known issue, than I'm allowed to remind people of a known issue as well, which is exactly what I did and what you afterwards question in a rhetorical form.

Furthermore, you now say it's because people 'could' have misunderstood which 'might' lead to being offended... So avoiding misunderstanding and avoiding offence is your ultimate reason? In that case: saying 'So, what? Black_Fox isn't allowed to mention it in the currently more active thread where such issues are being discussed?" is completely different than saying "Webunny, what you say could be misunderstood by others - in MY personal opinion, where I feel I have to speak on behalf of others who I think can't speak for themselves* - so it might be better to change the wording.". It should have been obvious that the first would be far less conductive for not getting into a misunderstanding or being offended - yet which was, it would seem, your intended/stated goal. So why do you claim I made some ambiguous claim which you think might be offensive and 'nip it in the bud', by being pretty offensive yourself? By doing so, especially in that manner, you should have been aware you didn't nip it in the bud, but rather were watering, fertilising and cultivating it.

*aka, this is also an example of projection

Thus, if I may be so free to speak my mind:

1)I do not agree with your assessment that what I say was unduly offensive, provocative or even ambiguous. I stated a fact. It was to inform Black_Fox that the issue had already been noted before (namely by me), and that I had mentioned so to the devs/PR (and thus, that they were already aware of the issue). You question why I felt the need to say it. But I feel my reasons are enough, just like B_F apparently felt he had reasons enough to post his. In fact, why do I need to give account to you in the first place? If "anyone (including Black_Fox) is allowed to remind people of a known issue", you shouldn't have been making a fuzz about me reminding people (including Black_Fox) that it was a known issue neither.
2)I do not see why you would feel compelled to make whole posts about what you perceive that 'could' be misconstrued by what I say. This is, frankly, quite patronising. We're all adults here; if someone (anyone) has issues with what someone (anyone) else says, I'm sure they can speak for themselves. You're not Black_Fox's mom, and even if you were, he's old enough to speak for himself. This is also the only way to get out of the realm of the 'could' and 'might', which is an endless debate anyway, since - as said - what you're basically doing, is projecting your own interpretation unto someone else.
3)If you were trying to 'nip it in the bud', you did very little effort to do so effectively. It means you (claim that you) were afraid my 'ambiguous' wording 'might' be considered offensive by someone, but the fact that your quite outspoken and far less diplomatic wording might be far more likely to be considered offensive, didn't seem to occur to you. Again, this is contradictory, just like complaining about how a thread is full of side-issue-posts, while continuing to contribute with side-issue-posts yourself.

In fact, this reminds me vaguely of a similar discussion... Didn't you and I had a thread like this before, about more or less the same things? Could be someone else though, don't know anymore. That's the danger of re-re-iterating too much. ;)

PS. What I say is not to be taken personally. I'm only expressing my thoughts and arguments about this issue, and on itself I respect the expression of your thoughts about it as well, even though I don't agree with them. Or at least not all of them, in this particular thread.

Black_Fox
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Location: Czechia

Re: Greek translation

Post by Black_Fox » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:00 am

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the missing flag at all, walls of text closing in again... :D
@justincase, please make the JIRA issue, otherwise your potential contribution will be lost.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:09 am

Black_Fox wrote:Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the missing flag at all, walls of text closing in again... :D
@justincase, please make the JIRA issue, otherwise your potential contribution will be lost.
lol. :lol: Yeah, time to drop it. :P

Well, I actually agree with the (his) suggestion that, if you take the premise that the flag should be the one 'best recognised', it's better to take the one of the Netherlands for nl. While other countries use it as well, I think it's better recognised by those other (smaller) countries when that flag is on, than vice versa.

justincase
Posts: 440
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:16 am

Webunny: As that post seems to be (almost?) entirely directed at me I would recommend that you edit it to be something on-topic instead, and send the current content as a PM instead.

Black_Fox: You said nothing wrong, you brought up a potential issue, which I found a potential fix for, the issue at hand is not of your doing.
Also, OK. I'll make the JIRA issue in a while. (unless someone else does it before I have some time back on my computer again, anyone can make a JIRA issue.)
Webunny wrote:lol. :lol: Yeah, time to drop it. :P
Yeah, and FYI most of this post was made before you'd posted that, I just pushed the submit button after you :shock:.

As far as I'm concerned this thread is waiting for Crackez to accept or reject Z98's deal, which is that if he (Crackez) wants to translate the website into Greek, he will take on the responsibility of migrating the Greek content to a new system (or new version of the current system) if the need to make such a migration ever arises.
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

crackez
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Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:41 pm

You sure wrote a lot guys heh,

So let me get this straight, when you say manual translation what does this involves? I hope you don't mean looking at each webpage source and translate through the chaos, that would be plain madness :lol:

If that's not the case(hopefully), how's the new system work? (I'm familiar with old one, wasn't anything fancy but did it's job ..I just didn't have the privilege to verify my translations).

So if you mean to translate throught the source, sorry but I can't do it(it really needs tons of hours and the translation system needs a serious update as this is kind of Medieval era), if there's a system which can use ..bring it on

P.S. If the old system is active and you plan to chance it I can deal with this chance, even if it involves re-translating the whole thing. Now if a re-translation is needed in the near future then I'll just translate the major stuff(main page and news for example) and wait for the new system then translating again those and all the other

P.S.2 Do we have any other Greek here? (I know there were 2 one was apal and one giannis? don't know if there still with us, one was translating the website and one the os itself ..we're talking about 5yrs back)

justincase
Posts: 440
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:06 pm

crackez wrote:You sure wrote a lot guys heh,
Apparently. :x
crackez wrote:So let me get this straight, when you say manual translation what does this involves? I hope you don't mean looking at each webpage source and translate through the chaos, that would be plain madness :lol:
If you're referring to where I said "there's a fairly small number of interactive (human) translation modules (as opposed to machine translation, like Google Translate, Babelfish, etc) for Drupal" I meant where a human does the translation rather than a computer (Machine translation isn't very reliable :(), it doesn't imply going through the source, but it doesn't imply the opposite either.
crackez wrote:If that's not the case(hopefully), how's the new system work? (I'm familiar with old one, wasn't anything fancy but did it's job ..I just didn't have the privilege to verify my translations).

So if you mean to translate throught the source, sorry but I can't do it(it really needs tons of hours and the translation system needs a serious update as this is kind of Medieval era), if there's a system which can use ..bring it on
I'm unsure when the switch to Drupal happened relative to when you were previously given translation priveleges, but If you're talking about the current system (Drupal) as opposed to the old system (RosCMS), then unless I'm mistaken it's something like this, but as I'm not a translator, I don't really know. (Could a Translator or Admin please verify or deny this?)
If you mean the current system (Drupal) vs what you'll be agreeing to migrate to if the need arises, then I have no idea what to say as to my knowledge there are no plans to switch to a new system, thus if the need arises, then the future system will be chosen then.
crackez wrote:P.S.2 Do we have any other Greek here? (I know there were 2 one was apal and one giannis? don't know if there still with us, one was translating the website and one the os itself ..we're talking about 5yrs back)
Well I'm pretty sure Giannis "smiley" Adamopoulos is still around, though he may be taking a break for a little while, he made a bug report on May 26th, so that's pretty recent. And I haven't seen anything from Apostolos "apal" Alexiadis lately, but lack of posts from someone doesn't mean their gone.
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

crackez
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:17 am

Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:31 am

justincase wrote:
crackez wrote:You sure wrote a lot guys heh,
Apparently. :x
crackez wrote:So let me get this straight, when you say manual translation what does this involves? I hope you don't mean looking at each webpage source and translate through the chaos, that would be plain madness :lol:
If you're referring to where I said "there's a fairly small number of interactive (human) translation modules (as opposed to machine translation, like Google Translate, Babelfish, etc) for Drupal" I meant where a human does the translation rather than a computer (Machine translation isn't very reliable :(), it doesn't imply going through the source, but it doesn't imply the opposite either.
crackez wrote:If that's not the case(hopefully), how's the new system work? (I'm familiar with old one, wasn't anything fancy but did it's job ..I just didn't have the privilege to verify my translations).

So if you mean to translate throught the source, sorry but I can't do it(it really needs tons of hours and the translation system needs a serious update as this is kind of Medieval era), if there's a system which can use ..bring it on
I'm unsure when the switch to Drupal happened relative to when you were previously given translation priveleges, but If you're talking about the current system (Drupal) as opposed to the old system (RosCMS), then unless I'm mistaken it's something like this, but as I'm not a translator, I don't really know. (Could a Translator or Admin please verify or deny this?)
If you mean the current system (Drupal) vs what you'll be agreeing to migrate to if the need arises, then I have no idea what to say as to my knowledge there are no plans to switch to a new system, thus if the need arises, then the future system will be chosen then.
crackez wrote:P.S.2 Do we have any other Greek here? (I know there were 2 one was apal and one giannis? don't know if there still with us, one was translating the website and one the os itself ..we're talking about 5yrs back)
Well I'm pretty sure Giannis "smiley" Adamopoulos is still around, though he may be taking a break for a little while, he made a bug report on May 26th, so that's pretty recent. And I haven't seen anything from Apostolos "apal" Alexiadis lately, but lack of posts from someone doesn't mean their gone.
I was familiar with RosCMS but the screenshot you've send seems to be even easier to do. I always DO 100% of translations myself, I never trust machines to do translations

If I was to rely on machines then whats my purpose? I mean anyone can do it but it wouldn't make any sense. So if "manual" translate means I do whole translation myself then I totally agree, I wouldn't chance that even if you wanted to.

So when we'll get into business? feel free to judge me(that goes to Greeks or people who speak Greek)

P.S. I'm open to suggestion/corrections of any type ..I'm human i might make an error sometime(athough I usually double/triple check for errors)

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