Simplify to move faster

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alexei2
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Simplify to move faster

Post by alexei2 »

Unfortunately, ROS project progresses slower than we all desire. Let's try to understand why and what can be done to speed it up.
Compatibility with Win XP/2003 is an honorable goal and I strongly support it. However, 20 years ago we had slow hardware, limited RAM and HDD, it influenced design decisions MS made creating their OS. Then MS took a path to make it more attractive to end-users, and to some extent to developers. Win 10 is bloated, it spyes on users, and it's overly complex internally. ROS should not go that way.
In my view it would be much better to have ROS-beta on modern hardware with only essential features than alpha with everything XP has.
It may be fun implementing shadows, animation, wallpapers, theames, etc., but does it really moves ROS forward?
It may be interesting excersize to follow all MS complexity to make ROS work on old computers, but is it time to do it now?
I believe it's time to make a stable "simplified" core system with essential functionality that just works and only fix bugs in it without adding new features. It should have working desktop, start menu, and stable drivers (with custom installers, as needed).
Then you can add all bells and whistles keeping the core untouched.
In my view, it's just not possible to handle increasing complexity with limited resources - the time required for testing and debugging would increase exponentially. Simplification and separation (componentizing) is a way to go. Application / driver wrappers are preferable to OS enhancements.
mmc is a nice feature with a lot of capabilities, but does it really worth efforts to re-implement, especially taking is account existance of numerous OS "tweakers" for OS customization. Does ROS need sophisticated caching working with SSD in 1Gb+ RAM ?
Overintegration is a plague of modern software. I mean, please don't integrate unless it's really necessary. For ex. "Dr Watson" used to be standalone application. MS integrated it into their OS, though it was OK as is.
XP/2003 will phase out soon, as it's hardly compatible with modern hardware and ROS is an ultimate choice for current XP/2003 users.
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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by dizt3mp3r »

You have it COMPLETELY wrong. You cannot recreate a modern version of Windows without creating first of all what you perceive as the 'older' components.

Windows is only new in a very small part.The majority is still the underlying o/s that you would perceive as XP/2003. All the hundreds of APIs that comprised XP/2003 still comprise Windows Vista/7/8 and 10/11 today.

You forget that Microsoft do not build a new o/s from scratch each release, it is simply later additions built upon older foundations. Some are rejigged and modified of course but fundamentally they are all "Windows" at the core.

By building XP/2003 as a focus, ReactOS devs are building the foundations upon which everything else can be placed. You are in effect saying the devs should put some windows, a roof and decorate a house where the walls and foundations have not yet been fully constructed, do you now appreciate the folly of this suggestion?
Skillset: VMS,DOS,Windows Sysadmin from 1985, fault-tolerance, VaxCluster, Alpha,Sparc. DCL,QB,VBDOS- VB6,.NET, PHP,NODE.JS, Graphic Design, Project Manager, CMS, Quad Electronics. classic cars & m'bikes. Artist in water & oils. Historian.
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EmuandCo
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by EmuandCo »

The core differences can be easily realized by looking at the NT version number.

NT 5.x is Windows 2000/XP and 2003 and all are very similar. (ROS is here btw)
NT 6.x is Windows Vista,7,8,8.1 and ignoring the idiotic rename a few weeks before release... EVEN 10 and 11.

The main differences you see are libraries, some drivers and MUCH user mode eye candy. There are MANY projects adding a few patches to older Windows OSes and suddently they are able to run recent software without bigger flaws.
Sure there is a big step between NT 5 and 6 and this step still needs to be done in ROS, but as @dizt3mp3r said... we need the old base before we can switch to the more complex (call it bloated if you want to that much) NT 6 as MOST of NT 5 still resides in there and STILL is needed to be there.

Btw, we have to go the MS way to an extent to be compatible. "Bloated" or not. Overintegration is no problem we have, we integrate as much as app and driver support forces us to. (Except a few toys like Solitaire and WineMine)

There is no way to "simplify" especially if you want drivers to work as you enumerated.

Your "componentizing" can be done in a few parts and is already done there. In short it can be done where MS did so too.

Don't forget one fact. We try to be Windows compatible and as that is our goal, we can't take many shortcuts. You are by far not the first one suggesting that and as always I have to answer NOPE.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

If my post/reply offends or insults you, be sure that you know what sarcasm is...
alexei2
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by alexei2 »

We try to be Windows compatible and as that is our goal, we can't take many shortcuts.
Btw, we have to go the MS way to an extent to be compatible. "Bloated" or not.
Overintegration is no problem we have, we integrate as much as app and driver support forces us to.
Probably, I wasn't clear enough and you missed my point.
I was talking about resolving compatibility issues on per driver / app basis without adding complexity to the core.
MS Win is not even compatible with itself (DLL hell, SXS) and ROS would never be able to mimic MS OS behaviour 100%, including its bugs.
A lot of stuff is already works in ROS, and in my view it would be much better to deal with incompatibilities on app / driver level adding wrappers, as needed.
Nobody requires you to make "one size fits all"-kernel - just make it stable and deal with app / driver problems on app / driver level :)
Using wrappers also has advantage of easily tracking apps / drivers behaviour and limiting their abilities for security and safety.
learn_more
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by learn_more »

alexei2 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:43 pm
We try to be Windows compatible and as that is our goal, we can't take many shortcuts.
Btw, we have to go the MS way to an extent to be compatible. "Bloated" or not.
Overintegration is no problem we have, we integrate as much as app and driver support forces us to.
Probably, I wasn't clear enough and you missed my point.
I was talking about resolving compatibility issues on per driver / app basis without adding complexity to the core.
MS Win is not even compatible with itself (DLL hell, SXS) and ROS would never be able to mimic MS OS behaviour 100%, including its bugs.
A lot of stuff is already works in ROS, and in my view it would be much better to deal with incompatibilities on app / driver level adding wrappers, as needed.
Nobody requires you to make "one size fits all"-kernel - just make it stable and deal with app / driver problems on app / driver level :)
Using wrappers also has advantage of easily tracking apps / drivers behaviour and limiting their abilities for security and safety.
We await your contributions.
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EmuandCo
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by EmuandCo »

Ok, this sounds at least doable. If it's the right way to go is another story. I think what we do is right as we need a base to depend on first. This base is not reality yet. As soon as we get to that point of course we can go on the way you explained. But that is my opinion. Not the one of the whole project.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

If my post/reply offends or insults you, be sure that you know what sarcasm is...
feldrim
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by feldrim »

just make it stable
If it was that easy.
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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Just make it work.
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sl23
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by sl23 »

The obvious good thing about ROS is that it is free, free from bloat and free from being a corporate property that is unlikely to be crippled the way MS Windows has been.

I personally want an OS that is compact, using less resources but Windows compatible. Why has Windows grown from the small 650MB of XP to the massive 40GB of Win11? What exactly makes it so big? Why does windows XP run on such a small amount of RAM in comparison to W11?

I just don't see how the OS needs to be THAT bloated to perform EXACTLY the same basic functions as it did 20 years ago. ie. Connect to internet via WiFi/Ethernet, use any PnP device via USB, run any program although 32bit programs seem to be less compatible as progress ensues.

I know there are differences under the hood, but what differences need 39.5GB of extra OS data in order to run a PC? It certainly isn't graphical! MS store, Xbox, Cortana, built-in apps, none of these are of any value to me as they just don't have the functions I require. Yes that's just my opinion, but anyone remotely into PC's uses their own apps of choice. Not even Windows Explorer/File Manager is particularly useful due to it's lack of Tabs and Dual Pane. The most fundamental software required and it's still in the dark ages!

Why am I going on about Windows? Because I wonder after reading this topic, what exactly are the benefits of ROS? If it aims to accurately emulate Windows, it will surely end up just as bloated as the software it aims to emulate, will it not?
Last edited by sl23 on Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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leppy232
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Re: sl23

Post by leppy232 »

Not inherently. Eventually it'll have binary compatibility with Windows 11 but that doesn't meant it'll be a 1:1 copy -- so far I've heard the plan is to keep 5.2's GUI and stuff like that, and Xbox and Cortana are pretty much impossible to clone because they depend on external Microsoft servers. And even if it does try to clone 11's horrible GUI, it's open source, so you could just swap out the shell at any time and just keep the kernel and APIs.
Currently using: 0.4.15-x86-dev-4872-g8a3db97 (VirtualBox)
Pretty good so far, keep up the good work! :D
Formerly tested on: Dell Inspiron 2200, HP Pavilion p7-1155, want to test on: Dell Inspiron 8500, custom-build ROS machine (P4 2.8GHz, GF6800 Ultra)
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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Simplify to move faster

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Have a read of this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15868

With ReactOS stable and 'complete', everything from NT5.2 should be optional and configurable, nothing forced upon you. At that time there will no doubt be forks and additions that may give you what ever your requirement actually is.

In the future when Microsoft has buried Windows it will be the ReactOS team keeping Windows alive.
Skillset: VMS,DOS,Windows Sysadmin from 1985, fault-tolerance, VaxCluster, Alpha,Sparc. DCL,QB,VBDOS- VB6,.NET, PHP,NODE.JS, Graphic Design, Project Manager, CMS, Quad Electronics. classic cars & m'bikes. Artist in water & oils. Historian.
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