Recruiting

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sh4ring4n
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Re: Recruiting

Post by sh4ring4n »

PurpleGurl wrote:One word of caution. I saw the comment on hacking sites. We have to be careful there to not get anyone who has seen MS code for whatever part they propose to work on.
Does it include testing?
The cake is a lie!

PurpleGurl
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Re: Recruiting

Post by PurpleGurl »

sh4ring4n wrote:
PurpleGurl wrote:One word of caution. I saw the comment on hacking sites. We have to be careful there to not get anyone who has seen MS code for whatever part they propose to work on.
Does it include testing?
I think that is just for the developers. If you are testing, you are only pointing out what doesn't work, you aren't writing code. I am not sure if a tester who is "unclean" is allowed to share hints, though general ones might be. At any rate, good testers are valuable.

What we really need are experienced developers.

Murmur
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Murmur »

Z98 wrote:I don't recall PR/recruitment being on the agenda/no one proposed adding it to the agenda. Therefore it was not discussed. This is, from my perspective, due to there being no concrete proposal or point being raised.
I had two people who have communications degrees lined up to help us but if you guys don't wish the assistance that is alright. I will quit posting about it.

also this was posted so I thought someone would of brought some light to it.
vicmarcal wrote:
Murmur wrote:disappointed in the lack of a response from anyone who is capable of making decisions.
Haos, hto and me are ReactOS Board Members. We are "capable of making decisions" as we vote in the ReactOS Meetings.
So your suggestions are noted down :)

vicmarcal
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Re: Recruiting

Post by vicmarcal »

Murmur,
To the meetings we are carrying some of the Forum user ideas. The current, re-born, revamp is including some of the features demanded by the Forum users. Also in the meeting Gabriel and me were asked about the current trunk state in order to begin a full testing and then releasing. Gabriel and me answered that current trunk is regressed accordingly to our tests and highlighted by the Forum users and Followers. So your tests,opinions and shares are being taken in count :)We will go improving month by month...Feel free to send me via PM your suggestions, I will try to show them in the meeting.("Try" because usually a meeting is taking 3 hours)

b4dc0d3r
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Re: Recruiting

Post by b4dc0d3r »

Murmur » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:28 am
disappointed in the lack of a response from anyone who is capable of making decisions.


I made the decision to reply, tonight I made the decision to have keg beer and make burgers on the grill. Last week, I decided which way a Fortune 10 company would move on a number of client requests. I just figured I'd let you know... wait, maybe I shouldn't. But if you knew the people who posted here, you'd... no, it doesn't matter. I've decided, I'll delete this and just say, you may have meant ReactOS-related decision makers. But maybe you meant... I don't know what you meant. I'm gonna... hmm. Maybe I'll just see if you meant what I think you meant, and when you didn't then pretend I knew it all along.

And PR would be a great help. But I'm not sure developers would have a lot of input, especially on an open source project. The point is to do, whether people use it or not. If they do, so much the better. If they want to fix stuff, bonus. Not being a point in the meeting doesn't mean you can't contribute, and there's no reason not to subscribe to ros-dev, see the archive, discuss things. But the meetings seem to be limited so only active contributors have a voice. Feel free to read ros-dev and other ROS mailing lists to see which one is right for you. Also don't forget, you can PM anyone here to spread ideas.

http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

ReactOS - It's second only to Zombo Com in the unlimited possibilities you might experience.

Aeneas
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Aeneas »

Come on, b4dc0d3r, you know PRECISELY what "decision-makers" Murmur meant; and I deem him to be right.

Whenever a discussion goes into the technicalities, you immediately have developers and others reply, and in a heated and (even over-) selfconfident way. The moment, however, things go into "company policy", everybody hides into his rabbit-hole. It is understandable, to some degree, because these people are used to looking at lines of code and discussing how to change and improve them, rather than seeing an socio-economic entity develop...

... but such a software project IS an socio-economic entity, just like Lockheed Martin or the Red Cross or the Communist Party of China or the Catholic Church. They all exist, all have to struggle for product placement, personnel, public acceptance and whatnot. The current "leave us in peace, this is our hobby, let us code"-approach of ReactOS is ALSO A DECISION.

It is the decision to remain, ultimately, small and - for others, in the outer world - likely irrelevant (not meant offensively, just as a fact). It is a bit what would have happened if Linus would have allowed only 3 beer-buddies to touch his kernel.

Now, if you want to see broad use and recognition, SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE, must SPEAK FOR THE PROJECT, after having been empowered to do so, and with these certain powers, must take steps binding upon all participants (even if this is a bond of honour and gentlemen's agreement rather than legal rights). And while the project has its leaders, for all I see, its "base", the developers, either remains quiet or egotistically uncompromising. If they desire greatness and recognition, they must take steps, if not, have fun with the hobby...

I, personally, believe that a nice moment to do have such a discussion, in EARNEST, would be when you have USB support for flash drives, as this will be the first moment when people will be able to comfortably place data onto their machines (including drivers for other hardware, if no more user-comfortable solution for the drivers is found until then). Then you can "come out of the basement".

Murmur
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Murmur »

Aeneas wrote:Come on, b4dc0d3r, you know PRECISELY what "decision-makers" Murmur meant; and I deem him to be right.

Whenever a discussion goes into the technicalities, you immediately have developers and others reply, and in a heated and (even over-) self-confident way. The moment, however, things go into "company policy", everybody hides into his rabbit-hole. It is understandable, to some degree, because these people are used to looking at lines of code and discussing how to change and improve them, rather than seeing an socio-economic entity develop...

... but such a software project IS an socio-economic entity, just like Lockheed Martin or the Red Cross or the Communist Party of China or the Catholic Church. They all exist, all have to struggle for product placement, personnel, public acceptance and whatnot. The current "leave us in peace, this is our hobby, let us code"-approach of ReactOS is ALSO A DECISION.

It is the decision to remain, ultimately, small and - for others, in the outer world - likely irrelevant (not meant offensively, just as a fact). It is a bit what would have happened if Linus would have allowed only 3 beer-buddies to touch his kernel.

Now, if you want to see broad use and recognition, SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE, must SPEAK FOR THE PROJECT, after having been empowered to do so, and with these certain powers, must take steps binding upon all participants (even if this is a bond of honor and gentleman's agreement rather than legal rights). And while the project has its leaders, for all I see, its "base", the developers, either remains quiet or egotistically uncompromising. If they desire greatness and recognition, they must take steps, if not, have fun with the hobby...

I, personally, believe that a nice moment to do have such a discussion, in EARNEST, would be when you have USB support for flash drives, as this will be the first moment when people will be able to comfortably place data onto their machines (including drivers for other hardware, if no more user-comfortable solution for the drivers is found until then). Then you can "come out of the basement".
This is one of the best posts on this forum and totally explains how I feed.

Yes maybe there is little to market right now so an RP side for reactOS (We do not have a finished product) might sound silly but you need to organize now so we can get some new developers for the website / reactos and prepare for key launches like usb & beta stability.

MazeMage
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Re: Recruiting

Post by MazeMage »

Murmur wrote:
This is one of the best posts on this forum and totally explains how I feed.

Yes maybe there is little to market right now so an RP side for reactOS (We do not have a finished product) might sound silly but you need to organize now so we can get some new developers for the website / reactos and prepare for key launches like usb & beta stability.
Same here. I also agree with the sentiments of this thread in general.

I don't know for sure if ReactOS is just a hobby project (I believe Linux also started as a hobby project so it's probably not a bad thing.) but it doesn't seem to have the kind of leadership, focus and determination I've seen from the Mozilla Foundation or even The Haiku Project (which is also seen as a hobby project).

It seems that at the project current pace it'll be another decade before it reaches a usable (but still far from finished) state. This is a shame because it is currently the only Windows clone project.

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EmuandCo
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Re: Recruiting

Post by EmuandCo »

Would you please give us spacific suggestions what to do better? But before, keep in mind what sort of difficult task this project is and what we reached so far.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Murmur
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Murmur »

I posted a bunch of stuff needed to be done but no one noticed or is listening when I said it so I gave up.

1. If you want to know what to do read the third post in this thread.
2. setup said team to do what I posted in my post. This team needs to be able to communicate with the development team so that we can arrange & coordinate.

I am still offering to help but you need to contact me if you actually want the help.

Aeneas
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Aeneas »

@ Emuandco:

As a matter of fact, Murmur in this thread does not propose the impossible.

I propose, firstly, try to do something "little" but NON-TECHNICAL (we are talking marketing and public relations here - "let us program A" does not count). Something where the issue itself is not so important, but where you can check out your social dynamics and decision making processes. And let it be a little controversial, something where someone will dissent but will still be required to behave not like in kindergarten.

Say, you want to make a serious advertisement of ReactOS on "Forum X". Ask there for serious developers; and say what exactly they should be working on. No blabla, no optionality - pick a task and do a bit head-hunting. Say the only payment you can afford is fame and honour to be part of ReactOS. (See, if this fails, you will not lose anything - "failing" in some internet forum, being ridiculed by some random internet donkey is the most "awful" thing that can usually happen, so there is no real "risk" associated with that at all.)

If the decision-making works out, do something bigger. I actually think you need to exercise this decision-making thing a bit more (even before asking Murmur for help); for I see from your developer mailing list that you have lengthy discussions about ANY type of little issues and trifle affairs, and you need somehow to smoothen this, which is done best by experience through exercise.

But mind: if it fails, it FAILS, it is not to be "excused" as usually (you know, all this "we are volunteers" etc. argumentation). A FAILURE would need CORRECTION and IMPROVEMENT, though certainly it is not to be taken personally.

So my suggestion is this: go try to recruit ANYBODY seriously over an internet forum not in your own name, but in the name of ReactOS. Try to make someone speak for the whole project on a certain matter and give him certain powers of decision. And have a timeline. If someone is late or does not perform, consider consequences or alternatives - not of a "punitive" nature, but so that the task, finally, is performed. Just imagine, for a moment, that you are not a volunteer but working for a company.

(Given that most of you will at some point want to persuade another human being to share the rest of their life with you doing not ReactOS but the far harder "family project", i.e. to marry, this little exercise is not even pointless if it fails.)

Murmur
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Murmur »

my problem is that we need to organize before I can go out and start banging pans together. Has anyone been working on a updated list of things that need to be done like I posted in the third message?

inf_loop
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Re: Recruiting

Post by inf_loop »

We don't have to look too far to find a project that has a correct organization. Look at our friends at Haiku. They are as small as us, but they have a pretty good organization and seem to move very fast. One important point about them is that instead of alienating their userbase they work with them. One pretty good example, the "No." answers in this forum. I am with you, sometimes there are silly questions, but there is no better answer than a correct, smart one.

What we need and what the devs are doing should be on the main page as a list, in the same way as the GSoC project ideas. It is a good idea in my opinion to maintain the ideas list in their current placement. It doesn't need to be a detailed description, just what the current needs are and what should/is be/ing done.

b4dc0d3r
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Re: Recruiting

Post by b4dc0d3r »

TL;DR: has been done. It can use some refining, but you're going to have to be the person to either refine it or wish for it.

Specifically for Murmur, but also generally speaking.

Many things have already been tried, and resulted in the current participation level. There is little that can be done, practically speaking, to advance interest, and that is a fact that you will have to either accept or work to change. This requires work on your part, not just posting in a forum and insisting you're right.

Yes, a website update might help. That has been discussed, and is in progress. Unless you can do it, you can sit back and wait. There are threads dedicated to this and it has gone nowhere. Maybe it's in progress, but it hasn't happened, so nowhere as of yet.

Yes, updates might help. If someone were to develop, the best source is the subversion commit log. In the past, I've tried to summarize this. The audience was appreciative, but it added no developers that I'm aware of. The TODO list is "Find something that doesn't work, join IRC and talk about it, and then either fix it or help the guy that's fixing it." People fumbling for work are of little use. You may argue, but an operating system is such a huge thing, if someone has no idea where to jump in, they probably can't help. I have seen people make small suggestions, submit a few patches, and get developer status. Cameron Gutman happens to be someone I saw join the project and eventually take a leading role in a specific area, networking. At first, I did not trust his commits, because I wasn't reading the code, only the diffs. Either he got more comfortable, or got more accustomed to ReactOS, and he was obviously competent in very shot time. He got a branch, proved his worth, and got trunk access. I'm not trying to single him out, he's just the first person to come to mind who is a current developer who wasn't here when I started watching. Most people went through this, if not all. If you want to commit code, you have to prove yourself. Someone who has that fight in them will find somewhere to fit in. They are not going to follow some TODO list. If you think a TODO list is going to make people suddenly start to submit patches, you are delusional. A developer needs to be a user, as I've said, and see what's wrong. I will add a paragraph later to further hammer this point into your brain.

I found ReactOS through some advertising, so obviously it existed and worked. After this post maybe you will reconsider its effectiveness, but I no longer care. Slashdot had some information, and I dismissed it, but later found it while searching for something else. I checked it out, and it was interesting to me. But there is little to advertise. Slashdot has covered it, but it could use another story when a breakthrough is reached. KDB or the recent networking improvements would be a great benchmark to cover. Anyone can submit a story to slashdot, if you think you can put something together that's interesting enough go for it. The most recent thing I found was the beginning of ARWINSS, rather poorly summarized and the comments were full of confusion. There are references in threads devoted to the death of Windows XP, some "alternative OS" threads, and random updates. Yes, it has made slashdot for a number of years. I've never been to Reddit, but have at it.
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/01/18 ... e-Infusion

Recruiting: Please help our operating system that doesn't work yet. It copies Windows. No it doesn't add anything, and no you can't use the leaked windows source code as a reference. Most developers who have interest in Windows and open source have probably seen the leaked code. A few otherwise qualified people who post on these forums have seen it. For that reason, they do not post technical details. Yes, I know who some of them are, and no I won't name names unless I see something amiss, and only then just to Aleksey so he can deal with it, and no I haven't had to do that. GSoC is the single most attractive recruiting point, and ReactOS has been participating as much as possible. It goes to students, and the projects are available to other tech oriented people who might want to contribute.

I hate to be a downer, but IT HAS BEEN DONE. What you are suggesting has been done, to the best of anyone's ability. If there is more to do, this community is going to need some more specifics. Some people are suggesting that core ReactOS project people get together and do the work. They are already doing work, and already doing most of what has been suggested. Some updates could help, but only marginally.

If you want the work to be done, you are going to have to assume the role. Label yourself the PR guy, go to the IRC meetings, get your agenda on the official agenda, and talk. If you are asking for things and not doing the work, you are no different from a developer watching the project and not contributing code (i.e. me). I have really good reasons for not contributing code, and I try to support the people who do as much as possible in stead. "Contact me" is not acceptable. I hope I don't have to repeat this, but I don't represent this project. But as a member of the community, this reads as something passive, where you push responsibility on to someone else. I have ideas, you say, but no one asks me. I'm not on the agenda even though in my mind this is important, you think. People are doing work, and if there is more work to do you need to step up and do it.

Asking the project to recruit more people, while not doing it yourself, is the single most selfish thing I have seen in these forums in my time here. You want other people to ask other people to do work so that this project, which is important to you, develops faster? Take a second if you are offended, and consider whether that, objectively, applies to you. Do you know how Linux developed? Linus wrote the code, and he released it, and people contributed because they thought it was a good idea. And because it was just the kernel, it developed faster. People with a vested interest, the GNU foundation used Linux as a core until Hurd was ready (it still isn't). Without GNU, Linux would be a hobbyist project with little reason to exist other than Unix is expensive. ReactOS has to be a whole operating system - kernel, usermode, utilities, base drivers. It's a huge project. What's my point with this ramble? Enough people found it worthwhile that they contributed. If you are on the non-contributing side, sit back and watch what happens. If you want to contribute, find something you're good at and jump in. I want to do this, I want a voice in the monthly meeting, I want to control this part of this bit.

What happens on the forums? Fuck-all, that's what. Lots of talk, lots of nothing going nowhere. Do, or do not, there is no try. I'm mildly inebriated and obviously irritated by this whole topic, but this is the summary of what I've been thinking for the past 2 months or so about many of these forum posts. So tate it as you will.

Here's the paragraph I promised above, I bet you forgot. I've made several open source tools under many names, and every time it was filling a gap that either didn't exist or didn't turn up in searches. Most recently I picked up a Java application. I've never done Java before, but I figured it can't be that different from C++, JavaScript, C#, or any other curly brace / semicolon languages. I didn't ask for help, I just forked some code that hadn't been updated in about 2 years and started posting updates. I'm fixing parts that are important to me, and as users notice I'm changing things they report issues and I consider fixing those if I can. Often, I can fix those things quicker than what I want to fix, so I commit something in half an hour or an hour and it's fixed. The point is, it's for me. I write things for me, because it benefits me. If it helps someone else, great, I feel good when I go to sleep. But if it benefits me, I feel better the next day when I use it and it works better, and every day I use it thereafter. You don't have to be a developer to own something, but you do have to have a reason for doing it. You need a feeling of ownership, of passion. There is no way to give that to developers, they need to develop it themselves. And the only thing the ReactOS community can do is get the name out in as many ways as possible and hope someone bites the hook. You specifically cannot talk the project coordinators into magically coming up with people who want to write code for a Windows clone, who haven't seen the leaked source code, who aren't under some contract giving their employer rights to the code they write during their employment, who have time to learn operating system level code. Keep trying, someone might join and you can take credit for it, but it won't be because of you. It will be because someone wanted, truly and objectively, for that part to work or work better.

I don't represent the project, I only post here occasionally.

Aeneas
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Re: Recruiting

Post by Aeneas »

Dear b4dc0d3r,

your remarks "If you want the work to be done, you are going to have to assume the role." and "Asking the project to recruit more people, while not doing it yourself, is the single most selfish thing I have seen in these forums in my time here." are possibly missing the point a bit: much of the discussion here revolves around the impossibility to undertake action, even if WILLING to do so, WITHOUT PROPER AUTHORITY. The authorisation to do anything MUST come from ReactOS, rather than being flooded with silence.

If you want to know it precisely, if you do things WITHOUT proper authorisation you may be liable for any damages (including, e.g., the image of ReactOS in public). To give an example: if I were to address the issue to 200 fora (and even get a few positive responses), who guarantees me that ReactOS does not say, "Who the heck are you to make advertisements in our name? We wanted to come forward at a later stage and now instead damage to our name and reputation has been done!"?

See, I cannot walk around and talk stuff in the name of Apple or Microsoft. Neither can I walk around and talk stuff in the name of ReactOS. Otherwise I would be subject to a cease-and-desist-injunction with nice court proceedings following (well, at least theoretically). This would of course only happen if the person fails. If he "succeeds", ReactOS will "accept the kind help". This asymmetry is inacceptable - a person with proper authorisation by the project would not have to bear such asymmetric risk.

I am sure that the FreeBSD mall, http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm , is not selling things without the consent of the FreeBSD project. So properly authorising someone in such marketing questions is entirely doable. (And you, too, would not have to write then each time "not authorised... etc. ... just posting occasionally".)

So the question rather is - how are people to be authorised to act for ReactOS to the outer world. Please, do come forward if you know the answer, I am certain people will appreciate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I can sum up the question of helping ReactOS in any way as follows:

If you are willing and able to help in your preferred way, you are free to do it, and that is what many are trying (these are the poeple who drive the project and who most likely can authorise other people to act in some way - and therefore, these are the people who need to establish decisionmaking and organisational processes);

if you are willing but not able, then you need authorisation and that is what this thread's problem is, for all I see, about;

if you are not willing, though able, well, then that lack of opportunity certainly is regrettable and the person might want to think things over, but ultimately, it is his own decision (that is what you are alluding to but usually not the case due to lack of authority);

if you are neither willing nor able, you most likely will not find interest in this thread.

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