When does 0.3.12 will come out?

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barterpc
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by barterpc »

Bottom line I think this criticism is ridiculous. I know there are a few flamers who want to criticize the developers here. Basically if you weren't here for the beginnings of Linux or ReactOS' parent OS Freedows you can't comprehend what is going on. So let me help break it down.

Right now we're in Alpha development. This means while there will seem to be periods of rapid releases the reality is the releases will be slower on average. Right now we may be looking at the end of the 0.3.x tree. In which case 0.3.12 will take longer (possibly much longer) then can be predicted. Especially if you take the bulk of GUI emphasis in 0.4.x which would require resolving many of the current hardware problems.

Bottom line though is Alpha's normally present the most tedious and gut-wrenching work on an Operating System and often are not well documented because of this. Don't believe me try finding good release info on Alpha versions of Windows or MacOS. It's almost non-existent. You're far more likely to find it on Linux or BSD and even that's very scarce.

The reality is with the amount of changes needed to occur, their effective merge into the source tree, and the regularity (or lack of in this case) of scheduling it would be almost impossible to document the status of the ReactOS alpha. Recomendations for some people is that they should wait for ROS to go Beta when it would be more accomodating to end-user needs of regular updates.
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EmuandCo
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by EmuandCo »

i fully 2nd that. this should be stickied.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes
Aeneas
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by Aeneas »

I do not share this opinion, I rather think at some point in time, the criticism was rather valid. However, my points of criticism have both been resolved: firstly, what b4dc0d3r is writing is precisely the kind of thing which a "semi-techie" person wants to read, and it is very easily accessible (ros-dev, cia.vc etc. are great ressources, but you cannot possibly expect visitors to look in a hundred places - they would rather move on); secondly, the stuff uploaded by gabrielilardi, I mean the Arwinss isos, is just what is needed to show that "something regularly happens". OK, it is not "formal" releases... but then again, who cares? It is NEW stuff, which people can SEE; Arwinss or not does not even matter if all what is attempted is to show that the project goes on with regularity. "Daily builds" are not that helpful, because of the awful bugginess of such in so many projects (so a part of people, from experience, are not too keen on trying those; and the other part of people probably does not even know all too well what that even is).
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EmuandCo
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by EmuandCo »

This is Alpha Quality Software. The daily ISOs are not much less stable and feature rich as the releases are. As long as we have heavy modifications in the lowest areas of the system, regressions are a daily basis. We try our best to fix most for a release, but with that we are back at what barterpc said. Releases can and will be delayed often in this state because of regressions and stuff which is not done yet and has to go to the next release in our opinion. Complaining about a delayed release wont help there, too. It even might be counter productive. When a developer reads in here or is being told by someone who reads it, he will say: "Fine, I have more important stuff to do, lets delay it one more week and see how the ppl react." Most in here still dont get it I think. This is a hobby project. All developers in here have a real life, a real paid job, a family, friends, hobbies etcetc. If you force them in doing something in a nute'ish way you might risk ppl loose interest in this hobby. This is the truth and it wont change as long as we dont pay them for coding. So you have two ways, wait or load a daily ISO.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes
barterpc
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by barterpc »

Aeneas I feel for you. All the release are basic early prototypes. Up until the beta and even until it gets official at 1.0 it's a constant work in progress. The point is that this early in the game everything is up in the air. Release dates are only as solid as the software is complete. Since the software is far from complete then you really can't be sure of anything. Even a seemingly simple bug can mean rebuilding several modules (pieces of source code) spanning several different projects.

I've watched most major opensource projects from their beginning including Linux. Let me just say early pre-1.0 Linux was no different from ReactOS now. With one exception. Thankfully due to the maturity of Wine and other projects ReactOS is moving along faster. However, that still doesn't mean it doesn't have major problems to resolve. Operating Systems from the ground up are hard to design and short of pulling a MS trick (which would probably involve buying Mickeysoft) there is no way to magically make it any easier.

The first humble versions of Linux on the HDD still needed a bootloader on floppy. So as far as I'm concerned ReactOS is ahead of the game in that one respect alone. Second as Edmund mentioned, complaining too much about the regularity of releases may only turn what current developers this project has away and possibly deter other's from joining.

This is a labor of love, and should be viewed as that. This does not have to be done, people are not being paid for it. So view this less as a car you're going to buy tomorrow and more as test-driving an early prototype of a fun futuristic car that may be available for free 2 years from now. Believe me the change in perspective will probably give you more appreciation for what's really going on.
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by Z98 »

I will point out that Arwinss does not have anything special at the NT kernel level, it shares all the clunkiness and whatnot and trunk actually gets kernel improvements faster. Just because at times it appears to be better visually than trunk does not mean it has succeeded in overcoming or surpassing trunk's issues. It's just partially sidestepping some of the problems in the win32 subsystem by relying on external code. Solving them will require actually fixing win32k, which trunk will get anyway.

(Still only with intermittent net access)
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by vicmarcal »

Well, I dont share z98 point of view.
Z98 wrote:Just because at times it appears to be better visually than trunk does not mean it has succeeded in overcoming or surpassing trunk's issues.

1)Arwinss doesnt appear to be better visually, it IS much more compatible than current Win32 subsystem.And i am not talking about more beautiful icons(or visual glitchs), but about whole apps running. I can point more than 24 apps which works in Arwinss and doesnt even launch in trunk...


2)It has succeeded in overcoming and surpassing trunk´s issues. At least those trunk issues related to Win32 subsystem. While Arwinss wasnt having issues with FF Move Mouse bug (Timers), trunk was still showing it. And there are tons of more Bugs that Arwinss doesnt have and current Win32 has.Just try to install GTK apps or Gimp. Arwinss today is much more App compatible and stable than Win32.
Z98 wrote:It's just partially sidestepping some of the problems in the win32 subsystem by relying on external code.
3)ReactOS relies in a lot of components on external code. Out Network stack, our Uniata driver, part of current Win32 subsystem and much more. So Arwinss is not sidestepping but improving apps compatibility by using code that seems to be working much better than our actual Win32 code.



And yes, Arwinss is affected by Kernel Bugs (as it uses same Kernel as ReactOS), but many of the most annoying problems are in the Subsystem. And this is revealed by the high stability and compatibility of Arwinss.
Aeneas
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by Aeneas »

It is that "visual" part that I mostly referred to...

You see, that is the difference between a professional and a casual user. The casual user really just cares about the superficial impression. (But more casual users means wider publicity, that again means more developers, and that means better "true" improvements I think.) - It is like ... with Apple, if I may say so. Barely anyone picks an Apple for recognising it as technologically superior - but it "looks well". (Now, at the other end: do you ever hear from your non-computer-savvy friends much of a praise for, say, z/OS? - And something like z/OS would not exist without IBM, as noone would care to develop it...)

I think ReactOS, for being more than a hobby, will just need this idea of "even though it crashes, this basically works". (I DO accept that it is a hobby right now, even though I feel that perchance at least some developers would like it one day to be more.)
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by Haos »

@Vicmarcal

Did you tried any OpenGL demo in Vbox on ARWINSS, using not mesa bug vbox driver?
vicmarcal
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by vicmarcal »

Haos wrote:@Vicmarcal

Did you tried any OpenGL demo in Vbox on ARWINSS, using not mesa bug vbox driver?
Nope, i didnt. But i really prefer to have MS Office Suite, OpenOffice 3, Gimp, FF3(without Fonts messed), Utorrent, Emule,and tons of other apps working than OpenGl support.
I can live without OpenGL support, but not without a Real OS. I think is x1000 worse having a low compatibility with all the apps than not having a real OpenGL support.
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by Haos »

Those apps you mentioned basically require Win32 umode compatibility. In my case, i do prefer hardware/drivers level of compatibility, especially usage of video drivers. I suppose yarotows will be show better face than arwinss in this area.
vicmarcal
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by vicmarcal »

Haos wrote:Those apps you mentioned basically require Win32 umode compatibility. In my case, i do prefer hardware/drivers level of compatibility, especially usage of video drivers. I suppose yarotows will be show better face than arwinss in this area.
Sure. Arwinss is a fast way to obtain a medium-high User Mode compatibility level which is reflected in Apps working. Yarotows is another approach in much longer terms of time(i doubt it will adquire Arwinss Win32 umode compatibility before the end of the year 2012) that will help to increase Win32 umode compatibility and,mainly, Drivers compatibility.
But again, I seriously doubt that Yarotows will reach Arwinss Umode compatibility soon. Currently our compatibility with video cards is limited but not quite small, and has been improved recently. The thing is: Why making more video cards to work if the user is not going to be able to run usual and useful apps?(Yarotows). I prefer a limited Hardware compatibility(for now) so those Users able to run ReactOS will be able to run a big bunch of apps too.(Arwinss)
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EmuandCo
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by EmuandCo »

well. the yarotows driver compatibility changes can and will be merged to arwinss as soon as its in a mergeable state
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes
RaptorEmperor
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by RaptorEmperor »

EmuandCo wrote:well. the yarotows driver compatibility changes can and will be merged to arwinss as soon as its in a mergeable state
Thanks for the update. Seems Arwinss gets all the attention, we never hear much about Yarotows. :P
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Re: When does 0.3.12 will come out?

Post by b4dc0d3r »

You see, that is the difference between a professional and a casual user.
ReactOS is aimed at neither of these user types at the moment. It's aimed at people who want to understand and possibly mess around with Windows internals. Mostly these are the developers, who are obviously still learning things. Also people like me who want to know why Windows does something stupid, is it design or coding or both or third party stupidity? The kind of people who might run Haiku for a while, just to see what it does. Or Gentoo so the system is in an always-developable mode (change source and recompile, no fiddling or setup or missing libraries because if it didn't compile it won't run). Pro and especially casual users are not the audience, and won't be for a little while longer.

Run a trunk build, and if it borks up on you get a fresh one. You'll be able to contribute back in the form of bug reports or app compatibility testing. We all want it finished and working, but few want to do the hard part. If you're not helping in any other way, you have the hardest part - patience.
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