MSVC Compiler Support

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JPLR
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by JPLR » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:26 pm

Mmmm that not MSVC standard edition but MSVC Express edition.

Haos
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Haos » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:29 pm

Indeed. What's wrong with Express?

hto
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Post by hto » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:35 pm

I'm tired from it, too.
nute wrote: An open source project that has to be compiled with a proprietary compiler is of no value to anyone, period.

The GPL is probably inappropriate for this project going forward if people are going to have to use a proprietary compiler to build the OS.
nute wrote: Why clean room reverse engineer Windows if you aren't going to complement it with an open source compiler and open source debugging tools?
nute wrote: All Microsoft has to do is change the EULA and if ReactOS depends on Microsoft Visual C, a lot of work will have to be done to remove that dependency.
(My emphasis.)

Have you read:
Haos wrote: we will continue supporting BOTH compilers.
Ged wrote: We will maintain GCC support, so anyone who prefers it can continue to use it.
Ged wrote: For anyone not wanting to download Visual Studio that's fine, just continue using GCC.
?????

Please answer one question: do you ever read what people write, or do you intentionally ignore it?

Don't avoid giving a direct answer. If you will start another thread, I will lock it until you answer the question. If you will write here anything but a clear and honest answer, I promise I will ban you.

(Everyone else, please do not discuss until nute replies to it.)

nute
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by nute » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:33 am

If supporting both compilers, why support MSVC at all? It belongs to Microsoft. If you are going to implement everything needed using GCC, there is no
need for MSVC. Micorosoft doesn't provide anything for free, you can't fix the bugs in MSVC, so why in the heck would anyone in their right mind want
to use it?

As far as hto threatening to ban me, you aren't a moderator.

As far as do I read anything, obviously I do or I wouldn't be complaining about MSVC being supported in the future. I think making ReactOS dependent
on MSVC as that appears to be the intent is a legal minefield that makes the whole audit a joke. The code that comprises MSVC is the property of
Microsoft Corporation and therefore it does not belong in ReactOS or anywhere near it. Compiling ReactOS with MSVC will for the first time ever
add Microsoft code to ReactOS, code that Microsoft could get fussy about.

EmuandCo
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by EmuandCo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:10 am

Ok, you did not read anything of Ged's or anyone elses arguments. I wont take any actions because hto will do that anyway, what he can do, mod or not. Was a bad idea to start a flame with him. I will fully support his reactions
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

nute
Posts: 251
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by nute » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:47 am

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/05 ... e_for_all/

"Even so, Somasegar said Microsoft does not intend to give away its high-end editions, adding that sales have actually increased since the Express family was launched in November 2005.®"

I am having a hard time finding the EULA for Visual Studio, but the above statement speaks volumes. Visual Studio, the no holds barred edition, is not free.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... sql-server

"Just to make things really nice, it's also giving away SQL Server 2005 Express Edition though that's definitely less newsworthy as it has been possible to get a free, cut down version of SQL Server for a long time. But it's still good news for amateur developers and people in countries where the full price of SQL Server or Visual Studio is a year's wages."

http://ciitronian.com/blog/technology/m ... k-program/

"The software they are giving for free are:

* Visual Studio Professional (~$799 regular cost)
* Expression Studio 2 or 3 (1 user) and Expression Web 2 or 3 (up to 2 users) (~$599 + $149 regular cost)
* Windows Web Server 2008 or R2 (when available) (~$469 regular cost)
* SQL Server 2008 Web Edition (~$50 regular cost)

and you will have free access to MSDN which is around $500 a year value."

Clearly, Visual Studio Express is a cut down version of Visual Studio. I wouldn't build an OS on a cut down compiler that I can't fix if I discover a bug in it.

sebastiaan
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Location: Enschede, The Netherlands

Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by sebastiaan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:10 am

We aren't talking about visual studio, we are talking about the FREE SDK which includes de complete compiler and linker!

Ged
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Ged » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:22 am

nute wrote:If supporting both compilers, why support MSVC at all? It belongs to Microsoft. If you are going to implement everything needed using GCC, there is no
need for MSVC. Micorosoft doesn't provide anything for free, you can't fix the bugs in MSVC, so why in the heck would anyone in their right mind want
to use it?
PDB's!!!!!!!!!!!
Which means much faster development using tools like WinDbg, Visual Studio, Process Explorer, Process Monitor, OllyDbg, etc.....
Fucking hell, why do you ignore everything people tell you???
nute wrote: As far as hto threatening to ban me, you aren't a moderator.
Yes he is
nute wrote: As far as do I read anything, obviously I do or I wouldn't be complaining about MSVC being supported in the future. I think making ReactOS dependent
on MSVC as that appears to be the intent is a legal minefield that makes the whole audit a joke.
No body cares what you think any more. All your statements are nonsense, I have no idea where you get your ideas....
All people care about is you leaving this community.
nute wrote: The code that comprises MSVC is the property ofMicrosoft Corporation and therefore it does not belong in ReactOS or anywhere near it. Compiling ReactOS with MSVC will for the first time ever add Microsoft code to ReactOS, code that Microsoft could get fussy about.
This is the biggest load of shite I've ever read. You clearly have no understanding of the topic.
I asked you to show me proof of your bizzare claims but (yet again) you completely ignored me.
nute wrote: Clearly, Visual Studio Express is a cut down version of Visual Studio. I wouldn't build an OS on a cut down compiler that I can't fix if I discover a bug in it.
The express version removes functionality which isn't important to us.
The compiler and all the build tools are EXACTLY the same.
You have no idea what you're talking about!!!


My patience has run out with you now.

Smiley
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Smiley » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:27 am

nute wrote: Clearly, Visual Studio Express is a cut down version of Visual Studio. I wouldn't build an OS on a cut down compiler that I can't fix if I discover a bug in it.
Perhaps you don't know that most of our code compiles with visual studio. Still we must fix our code to make it link as well. There are several developers that used a compiled kernel with msvc that let them do source-level debugging.

At everyone: Stop answering to this thread. This guy doesn't know what he is talking about

EDIT: Did you know that many open source projects for windows have stoped using gcc? Some examples are Mono for windows and KDE for windows

Ged
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Ged » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:44 am

Nealry all open source projects for Windows use Visual Studio.

nute, which internet browser do you use on Windows?
If it's Firefox or Chrome you should stop using them immediately as they are both built with Visual Studio.

Hey nute, I wonder if Google knows that Microsoft own all the code to Google Chrome .......

Have you ever downloaded source code using TortoiseSVN?
Oh dear, this is built with Visual Studio too.


In fact, I challenge someone to find me 5 popular open source applications for Windows which aren't built with Visual Studio

jcalvarez
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:41 am

Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by jcalvarez » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:46 pm

In fact, I challenge someone to find me 5 popular open source applications for Windows which aren't built with Visual Studio
1) GCC
2) MAKE
3) GDB
4) LD
5) AS

All using mingw32 :mrgreen:

Black_Fox
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Location: Czechia

Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Black_Fox » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:45 pm

Good, that's one... :)

Haos
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by Haos » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:47 pm

Ged asked for popular on windows.... Amongst Windows users. Gcc is Linux, not Windows application, so it should be Mingw. Finally, most of those programs are not projects by themselves, but just a part of bigger ones (Mingw, binutils, GNU).

zefklop
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by zefklop » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:28 am

Ged took a good point there, although MinGW is really suitable for most projects. The fact is that porting a project to windows requires some tweaks, even with MinGW, so it would be foolish not to add MSVC support.

Anyway, I would not like to be THE one who made hto angry...

nute
Posts: 251
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Re: MSVC Compiler Support

Post by nute » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:31 am

"You cannot "modify or distribute the source code of any Distributable Code so that any part of it becomes subject to an Excluded License." This is to defend against VS developers employing software governed by licenses like the GPL (Linux, Firefox).

http://www.techfeed.net/blog/index.cfm/ ... -Agreement

If Firefox is compiled with Visual Studio, I don't know how that community gets around this little tidbit.
I guess people don't read it. If you ask me, using Visual Studio to compile a GPL'ed software product is
just plain lazy.

You cannot perform "...staging on a server in a production environment, such as loading content prior to production use." That's Ok Microsoft, I didn't really want to test my software anyway. Thank you for giving me a legal reason not to.

"My conclusion is that I would probably avoid voluntarily using VS to create programs (personally), because Microsoft has way too much control over how I use VS, and what I can do with the software I would create with VS."

Humor me people, assume this guy is right that Microsoft can exercise a great deal of control over how you use VS. Why on Earth would Microsoft not try to if ReactOS becomes a serious competitor to Windows?

Look at what I found on another site:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/academic/bb679921.aspx

"No commercial use. If your faculty or students use the software to create software programs, they may only commercially use or offer such software programs upon the purchase of an appropriate commercial license for the software."

" Restrictions. You may not use the software:

* for commercial purposes; or
* to develop and maintain your own administrative or IT systems."

If ReactOS is built using tools that one has to have an AA academic license for, does that mean it won't be legal to distribute it? What does Microsoft mean by commercial? Surely a web site trying to distribute a free version of Windows will be considered a commercial enterprise. You can't expect to hurt Microsoft's
bottom line with Microsoft tools and not face litigation.

The Express editions of Visual Studio are intended for amateur programmers where ReactOS is NOT an amateur programming project. There seems to be a concerted effort by Microsoft to insist that programs developed with VS be developed for Windows. Have any lawyers actually sat down with Microsoft to
make sure the ReactOS community's use of Microsoft tools is legal? If you use VS, you have to worry about Microsoft's legal position. If you use a GPL'ed
compiler where GCC is not the only one, you can care less what Microsoft thinks. The obvious answer here is to not use Microsoft tools so that you don't
have to deal with Microsoft, a highly predatory company.

ReactOS will significantly lose value as a Microsoft independent operating system that can run WIndows drivers and software direct if it depends on the use
of non free Microsoft tools to build it. Free means I can do whatever the hell I want with my compiled code and nobody is going to tell me otherwise.

Who wants a Microsoft dependent OS that is not likely to be as good as Microsoft Windows for at least 5-10 years?

Short cuts are tempting, but in the long run, taking shortcuts can hurt a project substantially. An operating system to be truly free needs to be built using truly free compilers and other truly free tools. Only the GPL license offers real software freedom. Only GPL'ed software can be picked up by anyone and worked on, legally. The inability of some people in this thread to take meaningful and constructive criticism is sad. It is human nature to shoot the messenger, but that doesn't make doing so pay off.

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