Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

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fred02
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by fred02 »

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote: Also, we're really starting to get off-topic here... this is meant to be about MIDI in ReactOS, not sound quality in general.
Good point. Then may be the thread sould be split, and the discussion of TiMidity/FluidSynth should put in the new suggestion topic, while audio quality should go to Off-topic
board.
Can a moderator do that?

grschneider
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by grschneider »

Being able to distinguish between 128kbit MP3 CBR and CD Quality doesn't make anyone an audiophile imo, most ppl I know can do that. Just got to know how those MPEG artefacts sound.
As for 96kHz sample rates I'd say they're cool for sound recording and editing purposes, but not too useful for playback - shouldn't be an audible difference to 44,1/48kHz. The speakers would have to be quite good ones as well in that case.

As for the initial idea of supporting enhanced MIDI: unlikely to be part of the core system, but if shipping it as an extension is possible - why not. You'd probably have to talk to janderwald, he might have more ideas on this.

Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 »

grschneider wrote:Being able to distinguish between 128kbit MP3 CBR and CD Quality doesn't make anyone an audiophile imo.
But what about my 96KHz 24bit vs 48KHz 16bit comparison? You forgot about that...

Z98
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Z98 »

I would be more prepared to believe a psychological reason for believing a difference is heard than them actually hearing a difference.

Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 »

I said it was a blind test... did you guys miss that as well? >_>

I used this Audacity comparison method (with eyes closed):
http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?p=14245#p14245 wrote:hit mute & solo on one track, then to toggle between the tracks back and forth all i have to do is leave the mouse cursor over the solo button of the one track and click it and it will toggle between the two.
Note that I first toggled between the two tracks a bunch of times really quickly and rapitedly to randomize the track it started on before trying to listen and compare (all this with my eyes closed)

FWIW, the source audio was actually this MIDI with this soundfont exported as WAV.

Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 »

But ReactOS does what Windon't! ;P

Really though, ReactOS needs MIDI support anyway, so why not use a high-quality implementation like FluidSynth that supports soundfonts? It's better than writing the entire MIDI backend from scratch.

greenie
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by greenie »

I dunno i'm not sure. I would really like to see some stuff like JACK in windows. Though i'm not sure it should be in by default. I think it would be awesome but many wont, and I don't want anyone else's bloat. So how can I force my stuff on them. How well would this work on low end pc's or pda's?

Also wont this fail if someones sound card has midi support? I would have thought windows would try using a sound card and then might fall back onto software synthesizer. I suppose fluid synth would show up as another midi device.

Though I would love to see an audio distribution of reactos. It could be named waveos or rosa. Both awful names but you get the idea.

Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 »

No, it shouldn't fail if you have a soundcard. In Windows you know how they have the "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth" as the default MIDI output? Well instead of that, it would be "FluidSynth Software Synth".
Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

Pharaoh_Atem
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Pharaoh_Atem »

greenie wrote:I dunno i'm not sure. I would really like to see some stuff like JACK in windows. Though i'm not sure it should be in by default. I think it would be awesome but many wont, and I don't want anyone else's bloat. So how can I force my stuff on them. How well would this work on low end pc's or pda's?

Also wont this fail if someones sound card has midi support? I would have thought windows would try using a sound card and then might fall back onto software synthesizer. I suppose fluid synth would show up as another midi device.

Though I would love to see an audio distribution of reactos. It could be named waveos or rosa. Both awful names but you get the idea.
FluidSynth as a library is only 245KB. Adding in a light SoundFont (max 8MB) is not much. That doesn't count for bloat.

By default, Windows has "Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth" which is always superseded by hardware MIDI devices. If ReactOS makes a SW synth using FluidSynth (e.g. "FluidSynth Software Synth"), then it would only be used if the user chose to, OR if there is no hardware MIDI device connected to the computer.

As for configuring SoundFonts, the Sound devices configuration control panel dialog has a "Configure" button that is usually grayed out on MIDI devices because the MS Synth has no configuration options. That could be used for configuring FluidSynth for different SoundFonts and many other settings.

ironek69
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by ironek69 »

There is already timidity driver, but i am not sure if it works. I will give it a try today.
Edit: works flawless in Windows XP, works with custom soundfonts, but stores it's config not in the registry, but .cfg file.

grschneider
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by grschneider »

As for your 48 vs. 96kHz comparison: I can't comment from a professional pov. Haven't got such hardware or experience.
But from a signal processing point of view very few ppl should be able tell the difference.
Its like advertisements for lcds and tvs. "I need 100Hz to make it look right" - considering that a human sees ~25 pictures a second. Good for the eyes maybe.

grschneider
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by grschneider »

And 8mb is bloat considering that our bootcd with debug symbols has a size of 35mb atm. Thats >20% for an add-on. :D

Nintendo Maniac 64
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by Nintendo Maniac 64 »

But even with that logic, 96KHz and 24 & 32bit audio are standard built-in features of FluidSynth, so it'd be silly and probably more work to NOT support it.

As for 8MB, the soundfont in question is actually 5.8MB. Even then, it's possible there's a smaller one out there that could be used. I did find one general MIDI soundfont that was only 1MB, but it was ripped from a commercial soundcard which is no good for ReactOS. :/ Alternatively, we could even forgo including a soundfont and make some available via "Download!" or whatever package manager-like-app is being used by then.

And 25 frames? You've GOT to be kidding me, go play a game at 50/60 fps and then 25/30 fps and tell me you don't notice the difference in smoothness (especially in faster-paced genres like racing). I dare ya. (FWIW the human eye has no set frame-per-second amount it can see, it varies based on brightness and vividness as well)

grschneider
Developer
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by grschneider »

True for young ppl who are used to playing fast paces games. Most parts of the population wouldn't care.
I'll have a look at that fluidsynth app/driver, might be useful.

fred02
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Re: Built-in soundfont support for MIDI?

Post by fred02 »

ironek69 wrote:There is already timidity driver, but i am not sure if it works. I will give it a try today.
Edit: works flawless in Windows XP, works with custom soundfonts,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Was it TiMidity++/TiMidity++ Windows Synthesizer combination? Can you try it on ROS?
ironek69 wrote:but stores it's config not in the registry, but .cfg file.
Some people (like me) will call that an advantage ;)
grschneider wrote:considering that a human sees ~25 pictures a second. Good for the eyes maybe.
You are mixing up things. 25 (well, 24 actually) was/is used in cinema because it was the minimal frame rate that made an illusion of a "smooth" movement for an average person. As Maniac64 pointed out, you can see increase of smoothness to very high frame rates, 100Hz and more even if you are not "young". The screen refresh rates are a different thing, and it is "felt" rather than "seen" even on a static image (word document for instance) as a "flicker". 50/60Hz is barely manageable even for short work, 72/75 is average and 85+ become comfortable (again for work, not gaming). Oh, and don't mention 50/60Hz "refresh rate" of LCDs, it is pure marketing, as refresh rates are meaningless on this technology.

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