Which NTFS Versions to support initially?

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ScoTTie
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Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:40 am

Post by ScoTTie » Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:34 am

Stead wrote:i see that some people are against ntfs, however, howabout just using hte microsoft driver, is that allowed? as the people who have ntfs on there computers are more than likely to be using windows, if reactos is 100% binary compatable with drivers i can't see how using it could be such an issue, then people who don't have windows, or refuse to accept ntfs isn't 100% bad evil etc don't use it.

ntfs dos used the windows ntfs driver if i remember correctly
This would be possible, though it would require people to have a legal copy of windows (i know who cares if its legal..., but still...). It also totally ignores the fact that ReactOS is trying to reimplement windows as an open source OS, how is using a copyrighted dll going to help the aim of the project ?

Floridajin
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NTFS debate

Post by Floridajin » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:24 am

You know, I think the NTFS->ReiserFS4 converter or something like that would be really cool. I do think that NTFS write support is something that ReactOS (and Linux) will always be playing catch-up against. As discussed in the other threads, ReiserFS4, because of its metadata, could represent any of the NTFS file permissions flags, etc.

It would be ideal to have an NTFS driver but I believe it will be dificult to implement. The OSS drivers are already there. We really need real file permissions, and let's face it, FAT isn't gonna cut it in this area. ReactOS must have a modern filesystem and NTFS may be a way off.

Perhaps a good goal would be to work towards an NTFS driver but get an OSS driver working now. There are plenty of tech-type people who would start using ReactOS on small load home servers (for home video/audio/internet routing). I know because I'm one of them.

Immediately speaking, if you want ReactOS to be useful sooner, going with an OSS driver seems like the smartest option. If you can add NTFS support, good for you, but this is a moving target, which Microsoft is famous for (think documents and APIs.) It will be hard enough just keeping up with Windows API compatibility, but adding NTFS support is gonna be a nightmare (and probably intentionally so. There is a reason MS doesn't release their specs.)

oiaohm
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Now I start this I will end this everyone leave this thread

Post by oiaohm » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:32 am

Number one we have ntfs read support without microsoft ntfs driver(safe not a probelm) So this is most of the developer here required due to the fact that to interface with ntfs safely read write you need Microsoft Own ntfs driver. Please note Microsoft can still change the licence on this at any time so people will not be allow to run the driver.

Now for programs requiring NTFS permissions we can most likely look at samba 4. Yep samba 4 the development tree. In this tree is NTVFS yep a fake version of NTFS that runs on linux/unix file system. So if you install a version of windows after reactos you don't end up with trouble if you forget to fix the driver. Please note Windows XP SP1 changed the driver to somepeoples nasty supprise with data damage down the track.

So any more NTFS development is not really need.
And all consumer brand PCs come preinstalled with Windows.
Ntfs is not needed due to the fact if you want to interface with it completely you will require the Microsoft NTFS driver due to having the a OS with NTFS support you have the driver. So development in a diff direction. Not all systems reactos will be on will have windows.

Sorry this is not true A mac is a consumer brand and there are others as well that support linux.

I am not saying FAT sould be default If I said that I would be NUTS but could be done linux did it and was not nice.

Linux filesystem have to support extentions. Different linux systems have different security systems. Just like chattr -i on the shadow password file. Works on some system not on others completely stops people from changing passwords. Working with samba to solve this problem would be the wise move if done right linux and reactos could share settings.

The requirement are simple.

Translator to filesystem standards used by linux freebsd and unix most likely built from ntvfs.

Interconnect to the filesystems(double layor of drivers due to the conversion).

This will take time but there is no point to bashing our heads against the brick wall of NTFS support. This is just a problem with no fix anytime soon.

Now let this die. This has allready been completely wared out.

Stead
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:00 pm

Post by Stead » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:38 am

ScoTTie wrote:
Stead wrote:i see that some people are against ntfs, however, howabout just using hte microsoft driver, is that allowed? as the people who have ntfs on there computers are more than likely to be using windows, if reactos is 100% binary compatable with drivers i can't see how using it could be such an issue, then people who don't have windows, or refuse to accept ntfs isn't 100% bad evil etc don't use it.

ntfs dos used the windows ntfs driver if i remember correctly
This would be possible, though it would require people to have a legal copy of windows (i know who cares if its legal..., but still...). It also totally ignores the fact that ReactOS is trying to reimplement windows as an open source OS, how is using a copyrighted dll going to help the aim of the project ?

my point was that people who currently use ntfs, ie the ones who would probably want ntfs support, i'm guessing are already using windows, therefore they should own there own copy of windows, and using the dll shouldn't be a problem as they already have windows. then for everyone else, theres no problem, the installer could detect ntfs partitions, if there are, then copy over the drivers from windows to support the filesystem, otherwise, no need to support ntfs, everyones happy!

i think its pretty straightforward, if you got ntfs then u got windows then u got ntfs driver already else don't even have to know ntfs exists!

slyi
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:46 pm

gpl dos driver

Post by slyi » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:56 pm

Anyone know if its possible to port the read/write DOS driver to win32?
http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/ca ... l.pl#NTPwd
Its a completely different driver model from win32 but which is a simpler port from linux or dos?

ScoTTie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:40 am

Post by ScoTTie » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:12 pm

Stead wrote:
ScoTTie wrote:
Stead wrote:i see that some people are against ntfs, however, howabout just using hte microsoft driver, is that allowed? as the people who have ntfs on there computers are more than likely to be using windows, if reactos is 100% binary compatable with drivers i can't see how using it could be such an issue, then people who don't have windows, or refuse to accept ntfs isn't 100% bad evil etc don't use it.

ntfs dos used the windows ntfs driver if i remember correctly
This would be possible, though it would require people to have a legal copy of windows (i know who cares if its legal..., but still...). It also totally ignores the fact that ReactOS is trying to reimplement windows as an open source OS, how is using a copyrighted dll going to help the aim of the project ?

my point was that people who currently use ntfs, ie the ones who would probably want ntfs support, i'm guessing are already using windows, therefore they should own there own copy of windows, and using the dll shouldn't be a problem as they already have windows. then for everyone else, theres no problem, the installer could detect ntfs partitions, if there are, then copy over the drivers from windows to support the filesystem, otherwise, no need to support ntfs, everyones happy!

i think its pretty straightforward, if you got ntfs then u got windows then u got ntfs driver already else don't even have to know ntfs exists!
Your also asking them to do something that may be considered illigal (while im sure you dont care, its not a good position to put people in). I can see what your saying, though there should also be a free alternative avalable to people who wish to use it.

Its not going to happen overnight, but it'll get there.

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
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Scottie Better illegal than complete file loss.

Post by oiaohm » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:24 pm

This is the risk with writing to a undocumented filesystem with a driver out side our control.

Complete file loss has happened many times to the linux-ntfs and from installing a older version of windows and writing to a partion without updating the driver and other tools for accessing the ntfs filesystem.

This is a verry nasty trap.

I value data on harddrive sometime higher than legal copyrights.

Fight in court I was using this to access this filesystem due to lack of documention what was placing me in state that if I did access this file system with out this metrod I could not write to it without risking distruction of my copyrighted stuff.

The True and best fix is a new filesystem that is Windows compad and opensource.

Stead
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:00 pm

Post by Stead » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:14 pm

ScoTTie wrote:
Stead wrote:
ScoTTie wrote:
sorry i didn't mean i was asking, just an idea! its just i remember a programme called NTFSDos that did just that, even the demo used the windows nt driver files, it would make a boot disk, then another disk with all the required driver files from windows, and things like chkdisk, and then mount hte drives in dos using the nt driver, i assumed if a company could make a program and sell it without getting into trouble, if someone got bored an avid reactos fan could do it one day! i don't want anyone doing anything illigal :)

http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freew ... sdos.shtml
http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freew ... in98.shtml

on the site it says
****************
Installation
Before you run the NTFS for Windows 98 installation program, you must have access to a number of files (listed below) from the Windows NT/2000/XP installation you use to access your NTFS drives. This means that if the files are located on a NTFS drive you will have to copy them to a FAT drive accessible from Windows 98.

During the NTFS for Windows 98 setup procedure you will be prompted for the location of these files. You may specify either the system directory of a Windows NT/2000/XP installation (e.g. c:\winnt), or a directory into which you've copied the necessary files. The files that you must make available to NTFS for Windows 98 are:
NTFS.SYS: this file is located at \system32\drivers\ntfs.sys
NTOSKRNL.EXE: this file is located at \system32\ntoskrnl.exe
AUTOCHK.EXE: this file is located at \system32\autochk.exe
NTDLL.DLL: this file is located at \system32\ntdll.dll
C_437.NLS: this file is located at \system32\c_437.nls
C_1252.NLS: this file is located at \system32\c_1252.nls
L_INTL.NLS: this file is located at \system32\l_intl.nls
****************

that just gave the impression to me its not illigal! (hopefully) like i said its just an idea! and it i'm assuming if you could do that, it would avoid having to write your own ntfs driver

ScoTTie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:40 am

Post by ScoTTie » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:54 pm

Stead wrote:that just gave the impression to me its not illigal! (hopefully) like i said its just an idea! and it i'm assuming if you could do that, it would avoid having to write your own ntfs driver
You'd have to read through the EULA and other legal mumbo-jumbo, but just like MacOS X may only be run on 'Official Apple Hardware' im pretty sure there is a clause in there saying you may only use Microsoft products (and any files they may contain) with Windows (or any other Microsoft product).. While these may not be legally enforcable (you bought the program, you should be able to do what you like with it), it still hasnt been tested afaik.

Stead
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Post by Stead » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:54 pm

can always dream! :wink:

oiaohm
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All depends where your goverment sits.

Post by oiaohm » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:15 am

http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/ca ... tml.pl#law

Someplaces using the windows driver is perfect and legal. Someplaces not. All depend EULA rules in your country. Some countrys only part that means something is the number of machines you are allowed to install the software on.

Yep the microsoft licence is sometimes inforceable ie some sections all depending on what country you are sitting in.

forart
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Post by forart » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:32 am

Marek Szyprowski has released a very early alpha version of a NTFS filesystem driver for MorphOS.
http://home.elka.pw.edu.pl/~mszyprow/pr ... ilesystem/

Dunno if can help...


Well, his site seems interesting too:

http://home.elka.pw.edu.pl/~mszyprow/programy/

HaPpY CoDiNg !
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In progress we (always) trust.

A-v-S
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Post by A-v-S » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:41 pm

[off topic]

Hmmmm MorphOS, the OS of the PegasosPPC ..
Does anyone here have a Pegasos ?

[/off topic]
"you laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same"

http://www.il.fontys.nl/~andre

stilyan
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?

Post by stilyan » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:25 pm

What is the much bigger benefit of using NTFS,and not XFs,JFS,Reiser?Yes it is native windows fs,but not so good one,and those specification problems...Is ROS intended to be a line by line clone?

Meklort
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Re: ?

Post by Meklort » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:31 pm

stilyan wrote:What is the much bigger benefit of using NTFS,and not XFs,JFS,Reiser?Yes it is native windows fs,but not so good one,and those specification problems...Is ROS intended to be a line by line clone?
You will be able to you other fs in the end, we also want windows compatibility, so we need an ntfs driver.

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