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ReactOS X64 - (Adapt or Die)

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:33 pm
by linuxgx
The best approch would be a hybrid kernel x86/x64
- This way 32bit apps run fullspeed
- As well as Full speed 64bit support

As for what to do with the decaying / and newer x86's
- Emulation of x64 - Slower but workable
- All your doing is cutting the memory adresses in half so if done correctly a x86 3.2ghz cpu shoud preform = to a single core 1.6ghz AMD64 when executing 64bit code.
- Keep the catch in mind also.

You'd need a 64bit verson of ReactOS, the whole thing would have to be compiled for x64, you cant have a 64bit subsystem and then have explorer running in 32 bit.

The only difference in the x86 verson would be the emulation to support the running of x64 applications by paging tempory memory adresses untill the CPU processes the double load. It's actualy rather easy to do on the software level.

I've got 8gb of ram after all

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:18 pm
by coldReactive
I only have an x86 machine right now, so hybrid would be nice, or you could just make three different versions of the distro like linux projects do (one for x64, one for x86 and one for hybrid between the two.)

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:43 pm
by raketenfred
I think 64bit is an important point for ros, an 64bit only kernel will be the fastest one but the pcs will become faster. So speed is not a big topic, more important is the meaning of the developers, whats the easiest way, what is able to develop?

First when everything is possibile to develop, you can ask the users of their meneanig.

But first I think ros should become more stable, then we can think about other



Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:49 pm
by cppm
raketenfred wrote:an 64bit only kernel will be the fastest one
What does the address size have to do with 'speed'?

The only advantage i know of is being able to use crazy amounts of memory. So... what is the point?

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:52 pm
by Haos
Also 64bit operations are not that effective all the time. 32->64 bit upgrade brings little performance gain, especially when compared to 16->32 bit upgrade.

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:27 pm
by cppm
cppm wrote: The only advantage i know of is being able to use crazy amounts of memory. So... what is the point?
I should clarify; there obviously is a point in that it increases the scope of the OS and the applications therein. But it's hardly the 'adapt or die' situation that you pose linuxgx.

I think maybe you're saying the sky is falling because you had a pet idea about how to stop it. (the hybrid kernel). Which sounds interesting... but actually... reactos isn't a CS research project on hybrid kernels so... y'see my point?

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:28 pm
by raketenfred
At this time of the project the speed shouldn't be a topic but in the future the system will become slow of mouch komponents like ms.

But when you write a completly new kernel maybe of the basic of 32 bit the kernel would be faster than you build a bigger kernel for both.


Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:08 am
by cppm
(I'm folding in from another thread as it was inappropriately hijacked for this discussion by linuxgx)
blackcrack wrote:i have a 64bit duble core of Amd
4000Meg Ram and a 500Gig hdd
I don't see why that set up specifically requires AMD64

The fact remains that most consumer systems you can buy don't even have anything near 4GB of ram, let alone over it. Yes, i've looked it up and now i see there are other improvements with 64 bit architecture, such as position independent code and the SSE instructions. But the kind of performance gain that hat's giving isn't ReactOS's issue at the moment.

I should point out Blackcrack, that no-one's saying that 64 bit would never be supported, ever, i think that would be a stupid misjudgement as the IT world will get to that point eventually, but not today, and possibly not for a while (that is where it is 'Adapt or die' so to speak).

I think that the onus for all this lies solely on linuxgx for bringing up a subject totally irrelevent to ROS at this point in time and putting up a meaningless poll. I mean look at it:
Should we at some point add 64Bit Support
Answer: Of course!

But what does that show? When? How? We could be talking 10 years time here!

With these vagaries occurring it's no wonder that two hotheads start arguing like this, they just choose two extreme sets of the unknown variables and dig in for the long run. Thanks a bunch linuxgx!

you even hijacked some random thread as a coup de tat.

In short, this is irrelevant to ROS right now, no amount of arguing will get any code written. Peace out and good night.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:40 am
by linuxgx
It's actually much less code than you think. And once again I have 8gb and am forced to run Unbuntu64 of Winxp64.

Evaluating the stability of reactos on real modern hardware is becoming troubling.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:49 am
by Blackcrack
right.. and no one is buy a hardware if it is not supportet..
the same one no one take a Software it isn't supportet hardware..

64Bit is comming ... not alone by me *lol* no, the normal Computeruser is using it by Blender, Unreal2007, Crysis2 and what it is ever comming
who need the bandwith of 64Bit..

or for what it is making the 64Bit System.. i dont think not to dont using..

it is a must be, to supporting a 64Bit system as Systemprogrammer
other with dont use it in the comming time and we ...
Reactos is not a winner system.. btw. it is losing on the war of Systems...
Reactos mus easy take the Step too to the modern times..
and i be a grandpah of Computeruser and i say ... i see it ...


Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:45 am
by oiaohm
To be correct linuxqx you are not forced to run either 64 bit OS's.

PAE(Physical Address Extension) works fine under Linux so you could be using 32 bit linux with 8gb. Its when you hit 64 gb + do you need to change.

Many closed source xp and before windows drivers don't cope with PAE mode enabled. So forced to use NT bit 64 and hope you can get 64 bit drivers.

Most likely 3 to 4 years before 64 bit is at critical failure point.

It is known from Linux driver experiments that v86 can be got to from 64 bit. There is a mass of thunking required but its doable. So a true hybred kernel is possible. But would taken insane coding. Ie one that can use 32 bit and 64 bit drivers side by side.

Linux is sharing as much code as able between 64 bit and 32 bit because they are simplar. So I guess in places reactos would be able to do the same.

Note if ROS follows 2003 and better kernels. Its 32 bit mode will be able to be like linux. Since the drivers are built to support PAE mode. Lot of XP drivers go splat.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:40 pm
by linuxgx
:? Thats true I didn't even think about that, all newer pc that use 64 will have 64bit drivers and our little OS here wont be able to manage them. Thats not good.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:27 pm
by lentium
i vote for having a x64 React os

i don't know why but x64 stuff runs more smother and it's the future

the best option is x86 react os SO and x64 react os SO (with x86 emulation or something like windows)

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:25 pm
by Haos
There is no point in this discussion. ROS will eventually have 64bit version, possibly not as hybrid/dual kernel but as a separate version.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:39 pm
by elhoir
Haos wrote:possibly not as hybrid/dual kernel but as a separate version.
And i like that point of view more than the other