Vista and issue 20...

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Haos
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Post by Haos » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:23 am

I prefer some more elaborate texts:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/p ... _cost.html

Z98
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Post by Z98 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:12 am

Where in the world did we 'promote' Vista? It's a practical issue. If we want to run programs designed for Vista, we need to be Vista compatible. Burying our head in the sand and trying to deny their existence is not productive.

If memory serves right, the inquirer is perhaps the most blatantly anti Microsoft site I've ever seen. Their articles are more opinion pieces than actual articles.

Boycott DirectX 10? I highly doubt game studios are going to do that. Some of the features new to 10, they're going to like. Game studios don't have ideological motives behind the technology they use. And the audience they serve also don't care what underlying technologies they use. Also, a lot of the DirectX 10 stuff is derived from work MS did for the XBox and 360. While the 360 itself isn't DX10 compliant, I see no reason why DX10 will be any less successful than its predecessor. NVidia's G8 series is already DX10 compliant, and I give them two months before they iron out the bugs to their Vista drivers. I also give it a year at most before we start seeing DX10 games. And no, we aren't just talking about DX10.

Many of the articles telling people to move to Linux or Mac are made by their respective supporters. I've used Linux, I use it as a server, and quite frankly, most of those writers have different expectations than I do, and most of their reasons are invalid for a user like me. At best, their statements apply to people who need to have their hands held through just getting onto the internet or people who actually want to constantly tinker and work to maintain their operating system. People like me are in the middle, where we can usually do what we want on Windows and still maintain a stable system. Their arguments about Linux being more secure really doesn't move me considering most of the risks they mention people like me are more than capable of avoiding. And ease of use has more to do with familiarity than they want to give credit to.

And as stupid as MS' decisions go, there is a version of Vista that has basically every feature. That would be the overpriced Ultimate, but it exists.

TomParad0x
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Post by TomParad0x » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:49 pm

I for one hope they at least implement DirectX 10 compatibility ( Or whatever you want to call it ) in this, or a lot of people ( Me being one ) will go without it unless wine / cadega support it eventually ( Cadega is pay, so im hoping for wine. )

edit: First post :) And I already have the DX10 card ( XFX8800GTX ) - It is a beast. Playing Supreme Commander on it at the moment - no lag at all.

edit2:
Z98 wrote:Where in the world did we 'promote' Vista? It's a practical issue. If we want to run programs designed for Vista, we need to be Vista compatible. Burying our head in the sand and trying to deny their existence is not productive.

If memory serves right, the inquirer is perhaps the most blatantly anti Microsoft site I've ever seen. Their articles are more opinion pieces than actual articles.

Boycott DirectX 10? I highly doubt game studios are going to do that. Some of the features new to 10, they're going to like. Game studios don't have ideological motives behind the technology they use. And the audience they serve also don't care what underlying technologies they use. Also, a lot of the DirectX 10 stuff is derived from work MS did for the XBox and 360. While the 360 itself isn't DX10 compliant, I see no reason why DX10 will be any less successful than its predecessor. NVidia's G8 series is already DX10 compliant, and I give them two months before they iron out the bugs to their Vista drivers. I also give it a year at most before we start seeing DX10 games. And no, we aren't just talking about DX10.

Many of the articles telling people to move to Linux or Mac are made by their respective supporters. I've used Linux, I use it as a server, and quite frankly, most of those writers have different expectations than I do, and most of their reasons are invalid for a user like me. At best, their statements apply to people who need to have their hands held through just getting onto the internet or people who actually want to constantly tinker and work to maintain their operating system. People like me are in the middle, where we can usually do what we want on Windows and still maintain a stable system. Their arguments about Linux being more secure really doesn't move me considering most of the risks they mention people like me are more than capable of avoiding. And ease of use has more to do with familiarity than they want to give credit to.

And as stupid as MS' decisions go, there is a version of Vista that has basically every feature. That would be the overpriced Ultimate, but it exists.
I already know for a fact http://eve-online.com is making a directX 10 client, as well as keeping their DX9 one maintained for people who cant use DX10. There are also several other games which support DX10 ( According to one of their videos Supreme Commander is one of them ). There are others buy I cant remember their names at this time.

And the only reason I don't get vista is because of DRM - I do not do anything illegal, I just do not like the idea of it and I feel it was forced to be done by the music, movie and software industries and not what Microsoft actually had in mind. I think ( Have not seen any proof, only heard this - so do not take this as such ) Bill Gates said himself he does not like it, but whether or not that is true, I do not know.

jason.b.c
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Post by jason.b.c » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:06 pm

VISTA SUCKS BIGTIME..!

I'll never buy it and i will never own it... :lol:

furnace
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Post by furnace » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:38 pm

Nute, I can't help but read this thread thinking that you are trying to cause arguments rather than discuss. You have a very argumentative style of discussion and it makes people like me take you much less seriously..!

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:44 am

Lets be simple I think Vista Sucks. But that is not the issue.

Supporting Vista API so we can run Vista applications and supporting Vista drivers so we can use there hardware support. This is a good thing so people never need stuffed up Vista.

Rest of the stuffed performance problems does not need to be cloned to allow Vista programs to run on reactos. In some cases we might even use lying yes this is a DRM approved driver X when using own internal open source driver completely different.

Some of the security enhancements most likely will be taken into Reactos and expanded. Process Injection Protection stops a lot of stealth Malware and Viruses from working and hidding. Microsoft provide that for only DRM content. Its more useful for protecting the complete system than protecting media. Turnable on and off at system administrators own command would also be good.

superppl
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Post by superppl » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:14 am

Z98 wrote:The simple fact is, the world is shifting over to Vista. There are some fundamental changes within it which will break certain programs. There will no doubt be stranglers, but eventually the only Windows version you can get on new machines will be Vista. And most of the developers are using their home systems to work on ReactOS. When they update their machines, what do you think they'll get? Probably Vista. ReactOS will not be ready for quite some time, so those of us who don't care about Linux will continue to use whatever Windows version is out there.
Not really... :?
The world isn't shifting to Vista, and at this rate, Microsoft might as well abandon it. Vista brings new changes in policies and software practices designed to limit what you can do on your computer, and let me put it this way:
You don't use your Vista loaded computer the way you want to, you use it the way Microsoft wants you to use it. And if you don't use it the way Microsoft wants you to use, then you're breaking the law, you're a pirate, you're going to pay massive fines and you're going to jail.
Of course Microsoft doesn't specifically state what they to do and don't want you doing, but they've raised hell making it a point. Even average Joe realizes that there's something wrong.

Z98
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Post by Z98 » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:22 am

Show me Linux distros outselling Vista on the desktop and then you can say the world isn't shifting over to Vista. No matter how much you may hate it, it doesn't change the present reality, and that present reality is Windows still outnumbers all other operating systems on the desktop front. The current Windows version is Vista, and once XP is recalled, that's the choice you'll be left with. As much as you may try to "educate" people, some just don't care and will automatically buy Windows cause that's what they're familiar with.

superppl
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Post by superppl » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:09 am

:shock: You're post made me "wow".
Microsoft isn't going to recall XP anytime soon, they can't afford to. People aren't going to adopt Vista, not because of software and hardware issues, but because of DRM.
When Microsoft does decides throw out XP, they'll probably have another OS or two out that fixed Vista's mistakes.
If they decide to do it soon, well guess what?
I don't think most business, schools, and people are eager to, and can afford to, throw out thousands of perfectly good computers because they can't run a bloated OS. If I can't educate them, there's no better teacher than a high price tag. Imagine the person who thinks he's getting ripped when he buys a $500 dollar computer, and now he needs a $1000 one...
Oh, and you are promoting Vista.

Z98
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Post by Z98 » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:31 am

You seriously don't seem to understand how MS does things. Once they release a new operating system, a countdown more or less starts. After about a year, MS pulls all copies of XP from stores. That's the recall. After that point, the only way to buy a copy of XP is through unofficial channels like ebay or your friends. Heck, basically all computers for home users come preloaded with Vista now. Only business machines still come with XP Pro. The same goes with their office suites.

People are adopting Vista. Every time a home user buys a new computer, it's coming preloaded with Vista. People do not need to go out and outright buy a copy of the OS if it comes with their computers.

Schools and businesses will remain with XP for quite some time, just like many remained with 2000 and 98SE. I do not expect them to shift over to Vista until at least SP1. But home users are a different story entirely, and they're the ones driving the adoption rate at this point. The only home users that get pissed at Vista are people like you and me. But we are in the minority, and we do not drive the adoption rate of anything. Otherwise, we'd all still be at 2000.

The actual impact of the technologically inclined/literate customers is insignificant compared to that of the general public. We are not the majority, we are the minority. That's why we can get away with charging ludicrous amounts of money for tech support.

I fail to see how I'm promoting Vista. I'm laying out the reasons why it can't be ignored. I also laid out reasons as to why some of the negativity surrounding it was plain BS. Did I ever say it was perfect? No. There are parts of it that I absolutely despise. But I do acknowledge its existence and plan accordingly. If others want to just ignore it, that's their business. But MS once ignored an OS known as Linux, and that screwed them over badly.

superppl
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Post by superppl » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:46 am

Ok, now I see your point better. By recall, I thought you were talking about how they drop support for a product, not actually pulling it off the selves. :oops:
But adopting is more of where people go out and buy the OS alone, which I guess will happen soon.

Z98
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Post by Z98 » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:40 pm

Understandable. Recall means several things, though it's generally what's used to describe what MS does from articles I've read. It's a reason why you can't get Windows 2000 standalone or on machines unless you're getting them secondhand.

Very few home users need to go out and buy a copy of the OS itself. The ones that do are the system builders. However, as I've said, we're a minority compared to the people that just go out and buy a computer. Hell, I wouldn't bother to build my own if I can get a system that does everything I need it to. It's if I need an extremely high end machine that I'll build my own, since it's only at that point does it get economical.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:10 am

There is something funny with Vista. High end Desktop machine HP Dells and IBM machines cannot be got with Vista on them. Only XP is available. When Vista was first released they did have Vista on them. All major builders now give the no vista option. Something has gone wrong to say the least.

Market is truly looking like the Windows 98 vs Windows 2000. We will know by mid year. Too soon from release to complete tell if market is going to turn on Vista like the market turned on Windows 2000. Windows 2000 had a sale spike then it completely died off. People went back to Windows 98 because it worked.

I am a System Builder Windows XP will be on the market until the end of 2009 when support ends. Shelfs are effected by marketing. I could have aquired Windows 2000 and 98se for people up until the start of 2006 for people including building systems with it OEM installed. Might not have been on shelfs but was still on market.

Yet this has nothing to do with supporting Vista apps or not. With so many upset with it there is a open market so its kinda go for it. Thank you Microsoft for creating market holes for Linux and Reactos. Now lets get in a location to take full advantage of it.

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