Fundraiser is controversial...

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nute
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Fundraiser is controversial...

Post by nute »

I question the wisdom of flying anywhere to promote an operating system that isn't beyond alpha stage yet. Linux was developed over the Internet, why not ReactOS?

I see there are some new developers, but the developer criteria still appears to be, "you
have to be from outside the United States." Maybe when the audit is done, an American
team should branch off, this is a gpl project after all. I don't buy the line that Americans
can't work on ReactOS directly because of American law.

There is work on translations, but ReactOS isn't even stable yet.
Isn't this work premature?

Yeah there are screenshots of Transport Tycoon Deluxe and Unreal Tournament
but stop for a reality check developers, both of those are proprietary programs that
you have to own a license for. At least there is firefox, but the networking code is unstable. Priority should be on fixing the networking stack, not adding translations.
Fixing the networking is even more important to me as a first step than supporting
DirectX is. With stable networking, it will be possible to set up an updates site
and receieve crash reports potentially from people trying to use ReactOS in the
field even though it isn't ready yet.

noname224
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Post by noname224 »

Where does it say Americans aren't allowed to work on ReactOS?

geertvdijk
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Re: Fundraiser is controversial...

Post by geertvdijk »

nute wrote:I question the wisdom of flying anywhere to promote an operating system that isn't beyond alpha stage yet. Linux was developed over the Internet, why not ReactOS?

I see there are some new developers, but the developer criteria still appears to be, "you
have to be from outside the United States." Maybe when the audit is done, an American
team should branch off, this is a gpl project after all. I don't buy the line that Americans
can't work on ReactOS directly because of American law.

There is work on translations, but ReactOS isn't even stable yet.
Isn't this work premature?

Yeah there are screenshots of Transport Tycoon Deluxe and Unreal Tournament
but stop for a reality check developers, both of those are proprietary programs that
you have to own a license for. At least there is firefox, but the networking code is unstable. Priority should be on fixing the networking stack, not adding translations.
Fixing the networking is even more important to me as a first step than supporting
DirectX is. With stable networking, it will be possible to set up an updates site
and receieve crash reports potentially from people trying to use ReactOS in the
field even though it isn't ready yet.
For as far as I know, translations are made by enthousiasts who currently can not do programming (at least not c/c++). Also, I think Americans can work on the project, but not reverse-engineer (at least up to some point). That's not something ReactOS is to blame for, since ReactOS didn't make the American law. Now I'm no specialist on this, so don't take my words for fully correct until someone who is a bit more informed at this confirms it.
I just had to reply because over the past years (I'm following ROS only since .2.6) I have seen major leaps forward, and ReactOS is due to go to 0.4 this year, which will be beta.

Also, to you it might be more important to fix the network stack, and to me it is more important as well, but not every developer can code these things, while they may be doing DirectX programming daily. So why learn something entirely new while (1) you are better at something else and (2) there are other developers in that can do the stuff you had to learn?
Also the donating thing seems logical for me. You aren't forced to donate, so if you don't like, you don't donate, however, if you do donate, developers can spend more time coding less time getting money for servers and so on.

On your last sentence: Once ReactOS gets into beta, I'm quite sure some application will be written to send errors to bugzilla automated...
-graey-

Z98
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Post by Z98 »

I honestly don't know where you're getting this stuff or why you're making some of these assumptions. ROS is being developed over the internet. What else is the SVN for? It's so developers around the world can access and change the source code for ROS. And I do believe Linus began advertising Linux well before it was stable or complete.

There is nothing restricting Americans from taking part in the development. I'm American. If I wanted to, I can take part in the development. I don't because I don't know enough about programming nor do I know enough about the source code to do anything.

Who is doing the translations? Maybe these people are those who don't know how to program but still want to contribute. And all things considered, why does localization work have to wait for a part that's complete just because another part isn't?

What does it matter if there are screenshots of proprietary programs? They're demonstrating that ROS can run them. Is there a law against posting such screenshots? No. They're for example purposes only and fall well within the category of fair use.

The devs can choose what they want to work on. If GreatLord wants to work on DirectX, then he'll work on it. Besides which, network instability could be due as much to incomplete kernel code to still buggy TCP/IP implementation. Saying effort should be focused on this particular area isn't going to solve anything when so much is incomplete across the board.

Oh yeah, just a slight correction. 0.4 is still considered alpha. It's the last alpha though, since 0.5 will be considered beta.

.aart3k
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Post by .aart3k »

Since i don't really know internals:
I agree that TCP/IP stack is unstable, and in many areas ROS is unstable, but working simultaneously in many areas makes it more complete, we dont want only networking ROS, we want all-i-can-use ReactOS.
Besides I'm translator too, and i see a well reason of translating ROS now, in alpha stage (beside translating things that will remain in future): testing. Many people in Poland does not speak good english, good english generation, I can say, starts somewhere near mine.
So testing ROS, and playing with it, getting as many people as we can know about it will make it famous some way; then, in beta stages we can show it in schools, install in companies thst want Windows for only one program etc etc.
Donating? I belive that mainly it will go for hardware and developers. They deserve, NT was done by so many MS developers (developers, developers :P), we're going to implement such a thing with much smaller team (I ignore design and OS brainstorming, implementations!)

preston
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Post by preston »

I don't see the point here. You are not forced to donate any money if you don't want to.

I did some work on translation. I know C/C++ but I don't have much spare time, so translating is for me the best way to contribute.

btw: the screenshot is not TTD it's Open TTD http://www.openttd.org/

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EmuandCo
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Post by EmuandCo »

Why not translate stable Applications included to ReactOS? I dont understand what you want. And as the other said, if you dont want to donate, fine. Noone forces you. It was a kind plead from the Foundation and I am proud for having donated some money for their GREAT work. 8)

GreatLord
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Post by GreatLord »

ReactOS are devloing over internet to 100%, we devloper comucate betwin us with irc or mail. That is only way we comucate and the the source code server are on internet. How can u say it is not devloping over internet.

And we have devloper from USA and people contrubite with code.
ReactOS is follow USA law we even have a comping flag to shoutdown
pantent code in freetype. freetype have to mode one mode no pantent
being use, one that pantent being use. freetype is ReactOS font engine.

All devloper working in diffent area. and it is big project and allot happen.

Translations is done by people that can not code but whant doing something for us. so let them translate if they whant. we did create a
translations team for each langues when it come so many people
that whant translate reactos. so they are doing it in group.

Dontate
after we do not have real buget, we doing everthing on our free time.
we need dontanitons to buy in expens thing like new server. cover
travel cost to diffent event, like linuxworld and so on. the money going
to thing that we really do not have affort with other wise.

It cost allot of money acrding EU frist report to devloping reactos
yeah EU doing a case studing on ReactOS, what the the a unisvest say
to us. and we got the cost for the frist 10year how much they estamite
and how many programers it should take come so far as we have done
if I rember right now without checking mailing list they say 1000 programers are need to come so far as we have. in their frist draw of studing. to compain saying we are slow we are not. accding to the draw
reactos team is wort 1000 programers and we only working on our free time.

geertvdijk
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Post by geertvdijk »

And quite clear now, ReactOS also has a very, very attached community ;)
-graey-

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Jaix
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reallity check!

Post by Jaix »

nute, you have a really nutty way of seeing things, off cource we have to promote an os that isn't done/ready yet, else it would speak for it self. we need resources because we don't have much our selfs.

Of cource we run propriarity software we are proude of it, that's the point, don't you get it? We plan to be able to run all win32 code including drivers so we can be an alternative to windows, we aren't making an os just to be able to run foss. BTW I have a licence for the UT screenshots that I have made.

Try to think twice before you question an entire project on it's own forums most of your questions you should be able to answer your self if you stopped up to think before posting.

nute
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Post by nute »

Jaix,

Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. I now realize that my $5
donation to your anti American coder foundation may have
been a mistake. ReactOS doesn't need to be promoted in
my opinion at trade shows because it isn't stable yet. The
money raised should go towards speeding up development,
not promoting something that that isn't quite ready for prime
time.

There are plenty of good articles on the web that say essentially,
"when this becomes something, I want to talk about it more."
ReactOS won't need to be promoted if it becomes stable and
more fully featured.

You can drive people away from a project by trying to promote it
before it's ready. If the promotion money goes towards finishing
ReactOS ahead of schedule, for now, instead, that makes a lot more
sense. It is easier to promote an OS that is reasonably stable than
one that isn't. IT WOULD ALSO BE A LOT EASIER TO PROMOTE REACTOS
IF THE RULES WOULD ALLOW TALENTED AMERICAN CODERS TO MAKE
ORIGINAL CODE CONTRIBUTIONS INSTEAD OF LIMITING US TO: BUG
FIXES, DOCUMENTATION WRITING, AND TRANSLATION WORK. There
should be a legal battle to allow Americans who want to to make more significant contributions to this project. I think ReactOS could be
stabilized in a matter of months instead of years if talented American coders could make original and highly significant code contributions.

There is no reason for Microsoft to only tie the hands of Americans, the company will go after the EU. It is in the interest of members of the EU who reverse engineer Microsoft code to fight for their American counterparts who don't enjoy the same priviledge.

Gates, a man worth more than $5 billion. He'll take on a
goverment. He's bought a whole island and everything on
it before, "just to get some privacy." Ballmer doesn't
seem to be much better, I guess he threw a chair at
an employee for suggesting the release of a free version of
Windows. Ballmer and Gates are abusive men that need to
be stopped. It is so discouraging as an American coder that
I can't make the kinds of significant contributions to the ReactOS
project that it desperately needs.

People hate the fact that Microsoft is an abusive monopoly. Many
hate it even more that they are stuck with a: bloated, insecure, piece
of garbage that only someone with a lot of gall would call an OS. Yes,
XP is garbage. As long as ReactOS isn't, it will sell itself. If Microsoft
hadn't abused lawful use of reverse engineering all these years,
I seriously doubt that the trash called XP would have ever seen
the light of day in it's current form. XP wastes resources and there
are so many exploits for it, it isn't funny.

The ReactOS Foundation should work to free American coders
to fully participate in the project.

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EmuandCo
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Post by EmuandCo »

I am too lazy to write my stuff twice. Read in your new topic and stop making new topics about this. Dirty Rev Engineering is dead in this project FOREVER. Use clean Room or you may not help the project.

geertvdijk
Posts: 318
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Post by geertvdijk »

nute wrote:Jaix,

Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. I now realize that my $5
donation to your anti American coder foundation may have
been a mistake. ReactOS doesn't need to be promoted in
my opinion at trade shows because it isn't stable yet. The
money raised should go towards speeding up development,
not promoting something that that isn't quite ready for prime
time.

There are plenty of good articles on the web that say essentially,
"when this becomes something, I want to talk about it more."
ReactOS won't need to be promoted if it becomes stable and
more fully featured.

You can drive people away from a project by trying to promote it
before it's ready. If the promotion money goes towards finishing
ReactOS ahead of schedule, for now, instead, that makes a lot more
sense. It is easier to promote an OS that is reasonably stable than
one that isn't. IT WOULD ALSO BE A LOT EASIER TO PROMOTE REACTOS
IF THE RULES WOULD ALLOW TALENTED AMERICAN CODERS TO MAKE
ORIGINAL CODE CONTRIBUTIONS INSTEAD OF LIMITING US TO: BUG
FIXES, DOCUMENTATION WRITING, AND TRANSLATION WORK. There
should be a legal battle to allow Americans who want to to make more significant contributions to this project. I think ReactOS could be
stabilized in a matter of months instead of years if talented American coders could make original and highly significant code contributions.

There is no reason for Microsoft to only tie the hands of Americans, the company will go after the EU. It is in the interest of members of the EU who reverse engineer Microsoft code to fight for their American counterparts who don't enjoy the same priviledge.

Gates, a man worth more than $5 billion. He'll take on a
goverment. He's bought a whole island and everything on
it before, "just to get some privacy." Ballmer doesn't
seem to be much better, I guess he threw a chair at
an employee for suggesting the release of a free version of
Windows. Ballmer and Gates are abusive men that need to
be stopped. It is so discouraging as an American coder that
I can't make the kinds of significant contributions to the ReactOS
project that it desperately needs.

People hate the fact that Microsoft is an abusive monopoly. Many
hate it even more that they are stuck with a: bloated, insecure, piece
of garbage that only someone with a lot of gall would call an OS. Yes,
XP is garbage. As long as ReactOS isn't, it will sell itself. If Microsoft
hadn't abused lawful use of reverse engineering all these years,
I seriously doubt that the trash called XP would have ever seen
the light of day in it's current form. XP wastes resources and there
are so many exploits for it, it isn't funny.

The ReactOS Foundation should work to free American coders
to fully participate in the project.
The importance of promoting ReactOS is quite big already, actually. 'Cause when you go to promote open source software on events where many open source developers walk around, of which at least a good number is talented, you can get new developers. Also, your talking about American coders is quite strange. For as far as I know, you may code anything, you just can't fuck up with dirty reverse engineering, as many said before inhere.
-graey-

GreatLord
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Location: Sweden

Post by GreatLord »

Promoting of ReactOS

1. our buget for doing most the promoting is 0USD

2. When we going to diffent expo like Linux World and other
it give us new people that whant help us and most of that money
have been pay by us devloper not dontantion money. Donations
will help us here, so we can show up

3. dontains will frist hand go to hw like new server
repair cost of server. it is not cheap thing to pay
until this year it have been we devloper have stand
for this cost. Now we asking people that like ReactOS
helping us cover some of the cost.

4. dontaintos does not pay us any thing more that cover
very small cost.

5. if we devloper got pay this project had cost 1000 progamers sallary
more of that u can read in the frist draw from a univset that doing
a case stuiding on ReactOS for EU acount.

ReactOS is not ani American project we got devloper form USA
and we got rules about reversing. only clean room revsing are allown
it req 2 people todo it acoding ReactOS poilcey. and only in extream
case, there no document exists, andyou need ask if it okay todo it, as far I known we do not doing revers, for u can read everthing in msdn, sdk, ddk, wdf, dxsdk then it exists good books to read. how windows working.

forart
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Post by forart »

Nute i don't uderstand your problems, sincerly.
nute wrote:I now realize that my $5 donation to your anti American coder foundation may have been a mistake.
US peoples life philosophy is mainly money-based. On contrary, i don't like donate money to open source projects, i prefer to donate my time (that, in my vision, it's almost the same); in this way i can decide better how spend the donation... :wink:
nute wrote:ReactOS doesn't need to be promoted in my opinion at trade shows because it isn't stable yet.
I barelly agree: i'm -unofficially- promoting it between 3rd party open source (and freeware) win32 software developers. This could help in two ways: compatibility and developer engaging.
nute wrote:You can drive people away from a project by trying to promote it before it's ready.
Again, i barelly agree: for example i think -and probably i'll do in the future- that hardware manufacturers should be informed about this project even at this stage. This could benefit both the project itself and the open source community too (i always encourage to release source codes under a GPL-compatible license...)
nute wrote:IT WOULD ALSO BE A LOT EASIER TO PROMOTE REACTOS IF THE RULES WOULD ALLOW TALENTED AMERICAN CODERS TO MAKE ORIGINAL CODE CONTRIBUTIONS INSTEAD OF LIMITING US TO: BUG FIXES, DOCUMENTATION WRITING, AND TRANSLATION WORK.
There should be a legal battle to allow Americans who want to to make more significant contributions to this project. I think ReactOS could be stabilized in a matter of months instead of years if talented American coders could make original and highly significant code contributions.
What you mean ? ReactOS is GPL'd !
You're undervaluating its power: you can do EVERYTING YOU WANT with the source (patching, modding, restyling, etc) if you release the modified code.
eMule it's the best example of what GPL allows: tons of indipendent mods that adds features to the client. Then, if a feature is widely accepted, tested and recognized as functional, it's integrated in the official release.
So, why ReactOS shouldn't work in the same way ?
:roll:
(note: we already have an indipendent -and a bit controversial, to be honest- ROS-derived OS called MaxSO here in Italy. Even E/OS LX uses some ROS parts...)
nute wrote:There is no reason for Microsoft to only tie the hands of Americans, the company will go after the EU. It is in the interest of members of the EU who reverse engineer Microsoft code to fight for their American counterparts who don't enjoy the same priviledge.
I can understand this position, even if i don't accapt it.
I prefer to be pro-something not against someother...

Anyway, MS politics will collapse and destroy itself in the (near?) future... They probably already knows it, this explain the "Shared Source" and the Novell strategies... :lol:
»Forward Agency NPO
In progress we (always) trust.

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