Concerns

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gatorbyte50
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Concerns

Post by gatorbyte50 »

He, he, hi everybody. I am new to this site, and new to being a user of ReactOS. I was very excited to see it and love the idea of a Windows clone. I have been using Unix clones for several years now, from Red Hat, Suse, and Debian linux to FreeBSD and SunOS. I have enjoyed their uniqueness in a world driven by money, and have found them to be extremely usable. Now as I read the forums here and try to use ReactOS on my own I find myself wondering a few things and concered with a few other things. So here I go stating my concerns.

1. Somebody asked once, "do you think ReactOS will be sold with new PCs?"
- To that I say, why would somebody be concerned with whether or not you could get ReactOS pre-installed on a new PC. Just tell the company you bought it from you don't want an OS and install ReactOS when you get home. That is the point isn't it? Isn't it intended that ReactOS will be FREELY (as in beer) distributed?

2. Whew, why do people keep talking about using all of these proprietary licensed software systems with ReactOS. This is a Windows CLONE not WINDOWS! Am I right or am I right? So isn't the goal once again to make this a FREE system, with beer in mind? (Please note that I do not drink nor do I condone the drinking of beer, but do as you please) There are many softwares that have been developed for and by the GNU community that work on real Windows, so why wouldn't, or rather shouldn't they work on ReactOS?

3. I just saw a thread that was talking about getting rid of iBrowser as well as the Get Firefox link because they thought that Firefox should become native to ReactOS. This seems to bypass and overrule the idea that ReactOS is supposed to be a WINDOWS clone, at least that's what I've gotten from reading the front page. This isn't Linux again, is it? So if you're making a WINDOWS clone, then why aren't you actively trying to develop an IE6 or IE7 clone? Should not a Windows clone have most of the abilities of Windows? Windows copied Macintosh, so the Open Source community should have no problem copying Windows.

4. I'm concerned that people are getting greedy and that's why this project, ReactOS, seems to be slowing down. It apparently isn't getting the development attention it needs. People talk about funding. Well the reality is that you're lucky if you get funding. If you want funding apply for grants, but otherwise, people shouldn't be getting down because they aren't getting paid to clone Windows. That's just what MicroSoft would want to happen! The drive in the Open Source community should not be money - rather it should be to make better software for free (yep as in beer!)

So am I crazy? Are these not legitimate concerns? Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, and I love ReactOS!!! And I'd be willing to help in some way if I were allowed and mentored a little bit. I'll do what you ask me to do and not try to turn the car in a different direction.

Nathan

jbond_00
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welcome

Post by jbond_00 »

welcome! :o of cource your concerns are legitimate: they are yours! lol. some of them, though, i would not agree with. it seems to me that many people here are well aquinted with the linux world. also there are people who are very used to the windows end user way of things. i think these discrepencies are at the root of some of your concerns.

2: maybe some people dont pay attention to the licensing agreements? lol licenses are there for a reason but i think people will sometimes attribute a free download an open license, not realizing that when they install the "agree" button actually means they are agreeing to terms of use.

3: i think it would be cool to have webkit (safari uses it). the point devs want to make (my understanding) is to get the functionality of ntkernal and win32 down. no its not linux but reactos cannot not become linux. i am not saying it "will" become linux. i am saying there is nothing stopping others from creating ReactOS distributions.

IE sux ;p. but the "you" you speak of could be anyone and is everyone. this is opensource. maybe its a matter of time (doubtful).


well the other two (1 & 4) i dont know where you have heard that. but there is an IRC channel which you should check out. again welcome!

Matt

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

I would say yes to 1. That it will get pre-installed when good enough.

Thinking I can buy Linux pre-installed on hardware from companys.

2. Windows gets mentioned a lot because been a clone we have to keep a eye on what we are cloning.

3. Personal option argument. Has been there even since iBrowser started.
Normal somethings are on going disagreements. That is just one of them.
Please note IE6 is not compatible with IE7 and vice verser. Web developers hate IE because of its non standard following. So I would not be thinking clone here. Build something that works. Not clone something that does not.

Some think Firefox should be boosted. iBrowser depends on Mozilla's engine. I agree ibrowser is a lighter front end compared to Firefox.

4. Is a problem of a lack of required types of developers. Becoming a kernel developer is not exactly simple. So people are looking at how to some how get more of them. Getting funding is one way. Also with funding pay some of the current lead developers might give the more time to do there work and get more done. Even train more developers.(Yes I know Alex Ion*(pardon me I could remember how to spell last name) is already doing some of this)

The mistake in the novell agreement saying unpaid developers only. Key projects have paid full time programmers to look after the project. Samba, OpenOffice, Linux kernel...

It would be good if we could find someone to fund Reactos that way. It gives paid people more time to code and do other Reactos operations.

Last section of the Audit is in the kernel. Basicly everything out side the kernel is audited. Not a lot of people can do that work. Most people are trained in User Application development not kernel development.

If you are watching the svn development is speeding up not slowing down. Still not enough developers in partial sections.

dreams
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Post by dreams »

for q 3:
ReactOS is not going to be a Windows clone. It will be able to run Windows executables and use drivers.. If you want IE, you'll have to use MS's version.

gatorbyte50
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Post by gatorbyte50 »

Hey thanks for the replies. I noticed that there was some confusion in a couple of my concerns, so I'll clarify here.

On #1, I guess that's okay that there's an option for it to be preinstalled on new computers once it's good enough. Just kidding. Of course it's okay, I don't know why I wrote that down as a concern. Maybe it just seemed like jumping the gun a bit!

On #2, I didn't mean that we shouldn't talk about Windows here, and thanks for giving me a new perspective on why people mention proprietary software a lot (without realizing it's proprietary). Just a lot of the talk about building it up seemed from my point of view to be about making it into a proprietary system. I don't like that! The freedom is my biggest drive for this stuff. So I don't want this to turn into something that costs money (I know I can't really do anything about that though, but hope).

On #3, I don't mean that you we should build something like IE6 or IE7 that's broken like they are. But we should have the ability to be compatible with broken Windows components, do you not agree? MS has pushed very hard to make their own standards and have for a long time had their own standards committee, ECMA. With that, it seems that if their version of JavaScript or even VBScript for example isn't supported, then people will still NEED to purchase or pirate Windows to view certain websites. Just a thought that probably needs more thinking. Oh yeah and I know big time that IE6 and IE7 don't even work the same way on the same pages. I have to muddle through that crap at work.

On #4, yeah funding would rock! And yep the really good GNU projects do have funding, but it usually doesn't happen until a project shows great potential. As for kernel programming, aren't we using a hacked up Linux kernel, like Windows uses!?

LOL, gotta go for now. Please don't take my sarcasm to heart. I really like this project a lot, and want to participate...but how!

Nathan

gatorbyte50
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Post by gatorbyte50 »

dreams wrote:for q 3:
ReactOS is not going to be a Windows clone. It will be able to run Windows executables and use drivers.. If you want IE, you'll have to use MS's version.
I actually read that ReactOS IS a Windows Clone, like the way that Linux is a UNIX clone. And I can guarantee that the likelihood of any Microsoft Windows native component, like IE, running on a Windows clone is slim to none. As of the latest IE6 and IE7 Microsoft uses their "Genuine" installer to ensure that the Windows you are running is a legitimate, legal installation before allowing you to install. Also IE is so integrated with MS Windows that it probably just wouldn't run on a Windows clone due to missing or "corrupted" components. Of course they wouldn't really be corrupted, they'd be better in fact, but they wouldn't be Microsoft!

Thanks for your insight :)

ThePhysicist
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Post by ThePhysicist »

Windows does have Outlook Express, so let's clone that too, not use Thunderbird. Windows has Media Player, so let's clone media-player, instead of using MPC, VLC, etc. Windows does have IIS, so let's make an IIS clone, let's not use apache &co. Windows does have MSN explorer, wanna clone that, too? Why clone that stuff, if there are free (as in free speech!) and better alternitaves already available?

If you want an IE clone, go code one ;-)
And please make it not as blown as MS IE, pure C / WinAPI is preferred, no widgets, make it follow standards, secure and bugfree. If you do that, the devs would probably be happy to include it into the trunk ;-)
But as long as that won't happen, I would really prefer the devs to work on other things, that are needed.

Z98
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Post by Z98 »

As far as #2 goes, the point of ReactOS is to provide a base. Windows doesn't come with hundreds of third party programs, and neither will ReactOS. ReactOS will not be like Linux distros, which includes thousands of possible applications. If you want an app, you'll have to get the Windows installer to install it yourself.

And no, we are not using a hacked Linux kernel. The kernel is built from scratch. To hack a Linux kernel to also use Windows drivers in the kernel space would be harder than to do a from scratch NT kernel.

I hope you're joking with that "Windows uses a hacked up Linux kernel," cause that would make absolutely no sense.

ThePhysicist
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Post by ThePhysicist »

Z98 wrote:I hope you're joking with that "Windows uses a hacked up Linux kernel," cause that would make absolutely no sense.
Lol ;-)
Type "kernel" into google: 1st entry is Wikipedia, but then at least 9/10 results link to linux kernel stuff. That might imply the general idea kernel == linux

jbond_00
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LOL!

Post by jbond_00 »

gatorbyte50 wrote:Hey thanks for the replies. I noticed that there was some confusion in a couple of my concerns, so I'll clarify here.

On #1, I guess that's okay that there's an option for it to be preinstalled on new computers once it's good enough. Just kidding. Of course it's okay, I don't know why I wrote that down as a concern. Maybe it just seemed like jumping the gun a bit!

On #2, I didn't mean that we shouldn't talk about Windows here, and thanks for giving me a new perspective on why people mention proprietary software a lot (without realizing it's proprietary). Just a lot of the talk about building it up seemed from my point of view to be about making it into a proprietary system. I don't like that! The freedom is my biggest drive for this stuff. So I don't want this to turn into something that costs money (I know I can't really do anything about that though, but hope).

On #3, I don't mean that you we should build something like IE6 or IE7 that's broken like they are. But we should have the ability to be compatible with broken Windows components, do you not agree? MS has pushed very hard to make their own standards and have for a long time had their own standards committee, ECMA. With that, it seems that if their version of JavaScript or even VBScript for example isn't supported, then people will still NEED to purchase or pirate Windows to view certain websites. Just a thought that probably needs more thinking. Oh yeah and I know big time that IE6 and IE7 don't even work the same way on the same pages. I have to muddle through that crap at work.

On #4, yeah funding would rock! And yep the really good GNU projects do have funding, but it usually doesn't happen until a project shows great potential. As for kernel programming, aren't we using a hacked up Linux kernel, like Windows uses!?

LOL, gotta go for now. Please don't take my sarcasm to heart. I really like this project a lot, and want to participate...but how!

Nathan
@#3
Why does ReactOS have to be compatable with broken windows components if, at times, windows is not even compatable (blue screen of death anyone?)?

@#4
no this is from "scratch," "ground up," etc. implementation. Fresh kernel...
ReactOS does work with WINE (ie they share code) but some stuff just cant be shared.

@Z98
he is new.

we should probrably stop saying windows clone etc. and try to get everyone to think of it as OpenSource NT. i think technically "windows" uses/is the win32 subsystem (also, to a MUCH lesser extent, POSIX (sp?) which is more UNIX, LINUX and the like). correct me if im wrong.

with this in mind, just think of the "Windows" win32 apps as gravy which we'll be able to install at our disgression, but ReactOS (that OpenSource NT) is still a work in progress. thus, focus SHOULD BE on that and not what we can nessicarily install. my .02

Matt

Z98
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Re: LOL!

Post by Z98 »

jbond_00 wrote:
we should probrably stop saying windows clone etc. and try to get everyone to think of it as OpenSource NT. i think technically "windows" uses/is the win32 subsystem (also, to a MUCH lesser extent, POSIX (sp?) which is more UNIX, LINUX and the like). correct me if im wrong.
That's actually a very, very good suggestion. And I know he's new. It's just that comment about the kernel really didn't make any sense.

Heh. Linux is the most well known kernel, because it is a kernel. Windows' kernel rarely gets named or mentioned.

jbond_00
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Post by jbond_00 »

yup. at the same time, i dont want "OpenSource NT" to discredit the hard work people have done implementing applications, libraries, etc. ReactOS has grown big, just like its aspirations ;).

Matt

gatorbyte50
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Thanks for clarifying

Post by gatorbyte50 »

Hi again. It's been a while since I could even get to this site, guess it's been down to me. Anyway, thank you for answering and clarifying my questions and concerns. I'm WAY new here, so I'm sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way. I'm looking to make friends here, not enemies.

When I was talking about the "Windows uses a hacked Linux kernel" I didn't really clarify myself. I think it's pretty well known that Microsoft tends to steal things where they can't make a good thing themselves. Windows XP first release used a Linux kernel - or possible BSD based kernel. In OS theory a kernel is a necessary part of the OS, so Windows DOES use a kernel, even though the most discussed kernel is the Linux Kernel - OS X has a BSD based kernel, and UNIX uses its own kernel, which Linux does a good job of imitating.

Back to the first release of Windows XP - the fact that they used a "hacked up" Linux kernel, made to run Windows programs was prevalent by the short list of Linux commands the kernel supported at that time, for example, ls, cat, and so on - just basic stuff. They were headed towards a couple of class-action law suits and decided to take those things out with their final release of WinXP, which is also called version 2600 (funny that they decided on an old phone phreaker code as the version number). If you open a Windows XP command prompt, you'll likely have this version show up. Mine is version 5.1.2600 :)

So there it is, a kernel is not a concept invented by Linus Torvalds, whom I honor by referencing his good work here. It's something that's been around for a long time. Every OS has one, and on top of it runs the shell, and that usually runs other things like the windowing system. It's really basic stuff, and I'm sure you all already know about it all :) Since I was very young I have been interested in OS design, and programming. But I could never find enough of anything (source code, documentation, etc.) to satisfy my appetite. With Linux I've become again intreagued, and now that I've found out about ReactOS, I'm very interested in what's going on.

So has development stopped on the kernel since the code/cvs audit? I'm a little confused about that, and the fact that there hasn't been a release in a long time.

thanks,

Nathan

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

Ok gatorbyte50. So its that confusion. Microsoft does not use the Linux kernel code in there OS anywhere. Windows XP is part BSD code. What is perfectly legally permitted. Same with sections of the linux kernel are BSD code. Ie both OS's linux and Windows use BSD code in places.

Problem the bits of BSD in Windows XP date from pre 1998. And have been replaced in every other OS Using it with newer version due to security problems in those code sections.

Almost 10 year old defect is still in XP. Some of the reasons why Reactos should be able to beat XP in time on security without problems. Vista have to see how good they are at removing defects in that to make a judgment call.

The internals of Windows the Closest non Windows OS is VMS.

The first developer of Windows NT built VMS. VMS has unix like things like ls and cat. All could have been shiped with Windows XP. Thinking they ship them all with Vista. Catch was that they had to ship the source code to some of them tools as well. It was a disk space thing 700 meg only goes so far. SFU and releated parts containing the cat ls ... are download able from Microsoft for free. Yes you can put Windows XP back like the development version if you wish. SFU has a lot GPL licensed stuff in it. Including gcc.

Development has not stopped on the kernel since Audit. It does sometimes cause delays. A file might need a Audit on it before work can be done on it.

A new release will be soon. Then if everything goes to plain about monthly after that.

The release delay has been indirectly cause by the audit. Many things that should not have ever been in the kernel not illegal stuff all construction defects. Have been found and fixed but fixing them broke stacks of stuff.

Because some coders have been caught doing naughty things ie just coded in work around's into there applications instead of fixing the kernel bugs.

It has really been fun in the svn. There have been weeks where it just did not work at all.

So the audit is bring some good and some hell. Hopefully everything will be back on track soon.

arielb
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Post by arielb »

i think what reactos is trying to do is make windows the right way. ok so there are zillions of apps for windows. ok so windows has a monopoly. fine. that doesn't mean reactos should be 'evil' by going against standards just because microsoft does. reactos will be a nice windows and it's not just about open source.

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