NTFS-3G (FUSE)

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Speedator
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Post by Speedator »

Look at http://www.linux-ntfs.org/ for ntfs-3g driver. This does a great job.

Z98
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Post by Z98 »

Still has to be ported.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

To find NTFS-3g problems you need to download it. And read the README.

Its write safe yes. But it will not always write. It no longer destroys the filesystem by writing something to it.
Problem: "Operation not supported" message when creating a file:
Answer: This is a controlled refusal of file creation which can happen
when there are already about 100,000 files on the NTFS and the
MFT needs to be extended in a way which isn't implemented yet.
Workaround: Delete files then you can create new ones.
Status: High priority work.
Is highly toxic to a OS using it as its filesystem.

NTFS-3g is close but not there yet. Its perfecly ok for a person wanting to write a few files here and there. And reboot to windows to fix problems of the MFT.

Little bit more time yet.

ScoTTie
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Post by ScoTTie »

The new NTFS driver also uses FUSE so it doesnt actually interact directly with the Linux kernel, which will probably make it harder to port across.

Speedator
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Post by Speedator »

Haven't said it's perfect, but the most advanced.

frik85
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Post by frik85 »

a ntfs driver using FUSE is not a not a good idea, imho ...
... and a ntfs driver coded in python ... do i have to say more?

only kernel mode drivers are reliable for filesystem i/o and only microsoft's own ntfs driver is able to write in a save way, open source alternatives are not yet there (not in the next 1-2 years).

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

Based on Fuse might be simpler.

Interfaces might not be as altered to go into kernel.

Perfect is not the issue. Workable is. Higher requirements are on a filesystem that can be used to install on. NTFS-3g has not made workable level yet but is close. Maybe NTFS-4g will be it.

frik85
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Post by frik85 »

oiaohm wrote:Based on Fuse might be simpler.
Fuse is linux only ... :wink:

Speedator
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Post by Speedator »

What's the difference. You would need to port both kernel and FUSE-driver.
Anyway nfts-3g should be merged with the kernel one.
And python? Where is it python?
frik85 wrote:Fuse is linux only ... :wink:
linux-kernel-driver is linux only ... :wink:

Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

frik85 wrote:only kernel mode drivers are reliable for filesystem i/o and only microsoft's own ntfs driver is able to write in a save way, open source alternatives are not yet there (not in the next 1-2 years).
NTFS-3g works AND it's stable AND safe. Up to now, there hasn't been a single case where ntfs-3g messed up an NTFS drive, and there are few cases where it wasn't able to write something - but even in those rare cases, it gives you an error message and doesn't destroy anything.
It seems like you know just as "much" about file system drivers as you know about fixing broken websites.
frik85 wrote:Fuse is linux only ...
FreeBSD supports FUSE modules as well.

However as fas as NTFS is concerned, i think it's more important that ReactOS will at some point be able to load the original NTFS driver from Windows.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

Ok fsck of a crashed ext2 or ext3 is required. If you don't you will pay for it sooner or latter with data loss.

Ext 3 fsck's faster due to journaling. On a 40 G part its the difference between 2 mins for Ext3 to upto 15 mins for Ext2. Ext3 exist to speed up Linux systems restarts after crashs. Even that crashs of linux are rare most of the time.

Matthias NTFS is not ready. Write failure could be fatal if its used as a boot Partition. Currently one way to cure that is have a copy of windows. Not really the point of reactos that user still required Windows to fix a problem.

If you run out of write on NTFS and OS crashs because of it. It is most likely that reactos will not be able to restart itself. Due to needing to write stuff to startup.

NTFS-3g is safe as a non boot or home partition. Same write failure on a document and settting storage location could stop users from being able to login or operate correctly.

Remember give a user defective option they will still expect it to work perfectly. NTFS on Windows Works and NTFS on Reactos does not so Reactos is defective. Even if its a rare event. Its better not to support it and use something else until it can be make correctly operational.

Rare events are far more likely and worse with reactos than with Linux accessing NTFS. Reason Linux will not be running on NTFS. Reactos maybe.

Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

Currently, according to ntfs-3g's README, two cases are known when ntfs-3g actually fails to write, and both of them are highly unlikely:
Problem: "Operation not supported" message when creating a file:
Answer: This is a controlled refusal of file creation which can happen
when there are already about 100,000 files on the NTFS and the
MFT needs to be extended in a way which isn't implemented yet.
Workaround: Delete files then you can create new ones.
Status: High priority work.


Problem: "Operation not supported" message when deleting a file:
Answer: The support for certain very-very rare directory update
operations weren't fully tested yet, so they are not
included in the release. This is so rare that you probably
will never see it ;-)
Workaround: Delete or create other files in the same directory until you
can remove the file you originally wanted.
Status: High priority work.
As you can see, these problems aren't significant in any way to ReactOS. My current Windows XP Partition contains 52 000 files, so more than 100 000 files on a ReactOS Partition just aren't going to happen anytime soon! Also, ReactOS is still in alpha stage, while ntfs-3g will be included in Ubuntu Linux 6.10, which will be shipped this month. Taking that into account, ntfs-3g probably has far less bugs than the rest of ReactOS. And for now, ReactOS can't compete with Windows XP anyway, so someone might as well get NTFS ready.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm »

Sorry to say I disagree.
100,000 files I have filesystems with a lot more than 100,000 files.

Secound one defect is only a minor problem moving and deleting files by reactos should be able to get around problem without needing windows.

The important bit must be able to fix self without needing windows. Or be fixed from linux without windows. Current version ntfs-3g does not make that.

Basicly when the MFT works correct bring it back. Then it is ready for porting. Just jumping the gun a little.

Shiping with Linux does not mean its ready for reactos's requirements.

I personally guess ntfs-4g it will be ready for porting.

Ntfs-3g has less bugs. But it has one really important operational one.

0.3.1 ROS will be a lot more stable than the past versions.

Each release ROS will get more stable.

We don't need to add code with a critical defect that could be forgoten about if waiting one more version of that code will avoid inserting the bug into reactos code base.

Problem with rare faults. Its that they can hide from testers for years. And cause a lot of strange problems. We have enough problems to debug without adding a rare one that can stop the OS completely.

Phalanx
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Post by Phalanx »

By the time work on creating a FUSE port is done, I would expect they would have fixed the "bugs." That would leave a nice NTFS option, even if it was not the default file system.

frik85
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Post by frik85 »

Matthias wrote:
frik85 wrote:only kernel mode drivers are reliable for filesystem i/o and only microsoft's own ntfs driver is able to write in a save way, open source alternatives are not yet there (not in the next 1-2 years).
NTFS-3g works AND it's stable AND safe. Up to now, there hasn't been a single case where ntfs-3g messed up an NTFS drive, and there are few cases where it wasn't able to write something - but even in those rare cases, it gives you an error message and doesn't destroy anything.
If it "just works" for you and several other people, that's fine, but a filesystem is the single most critical part which has to be 99,9% bug-free and a very good performance. And alternative NTFS driver are not yet there.
And if a driver mess a bit with MFT structure, touch(&write) every file with admin privileges, don't know a single bit about journaling, streams or even extended metadata then it is for testing purpose, etc. (and people who keep their backups up-to-date) but not for every day usage.
Matthias wrote:It seems like you know just as "much" about file system drivers as you know about fixing broken websites.
And please keep your rude attitude at home!

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