Little idea about 64 bit problem

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themrsbusta
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Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by themrsbusta »

ReactOS is 32 bit only right? what about a Linux subsystem, similar to WSL or something that maps the entire RAM to a ramdisk and let ReactOS use as virtual memory?
Just a little idea :D

What do you guys think?

oldman
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by oldman »

themrsbusta wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:58 pm
ReactOS is 32 bit only right?
Wrong; there is a 64 bit version in the works. I have read that it boots to the desktop, but does nothing more, yet.
Please keep the Windows classic (9x/2000) look and feel.
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themrsbusta
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by themrsbusta »

oldman wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:50 am
themrsbusta wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:58 pm
ReactOS is 32 bit only right?
I have read that it boots to the desktop, but does nothing more, yet.
My idea can solve this problem, and 64 bit programs will run inside the Wine anyway...
64 bit programs could run even on subsystem too.
Last edited by themrsbusta on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gracehe
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by Gracehe »

Now they are all 64-bit systems, and 32-bit systems are less used. The 32-bit system only recognizes 3.25G memory, and now it is standard 4G memory that no one uses 32-bit systems.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by dizt3mp3r »

For most practical purposes 64bit processes are not really required and currently 32bit proves to be enough for the majority of applications that are not massively memory hungry. For most users, 64bit is really nothing more than a badge on their software that makes them "feel up-to-date".

A 32bit program runs and operates just as you would expect (quickly and just as functionally as they have always done) and does not require a 64bit system to operate. Ask this question: How many programs do you run on a daily basis that require more than 3.25gig of RAM - just for themselves? If you do then a 64bit version of the program is what you require but they are likely to be programs that either do a vast amount of genuine data processing or possibly are hugely inefficient in design or operation (browsers?)

Most programmers see their programs only benefitting in one real way, from the future-proofing that a 64 bit binary provides. This is because in the far, far future when Microsoft decides to drop 32bit applications from Windows then their 64bit version of their program will still operate. However, unlike Apple who have already dropped 32bit support, Microsoft are unlikely to ever do so as it would damage businesses throughout the world who are still running on essential 32bit Windows software. Apart from the real benefits of increased process RAM there is little need from the programmers point of view for a 64bit binary for most 'normal' programs unless your program is a real number cruncher with such a need. A 32bit program will run very quickly on modern hardware.

Of course the user benefits when running 64bit Windows system as it allows a user to fit more and more processes and programs on their 16gb+ RAM all running simultaneously. From this perspective 64bits is needed. However, bear in mind that modern oses such as Windows 10 are memory hungry requiring a gig of RAM just to operate but ReactOS is most likely to run in an efficient and slimline fashion regarding memory usage.

Any XP user will tell you that the extra 500-800mb that they have available to them is very useful and moving to Win7 is a shock when you see it eat a almost a whole 1gb of RAM just to function.

In any case, 64 bit ReactOS is not really required as you already have 64bit Windows if you really need to run a 64bit program now. ReactOS devs are in effect building a 32bit FOSS version of Windows 2003 and until that is somewhat complete nothing else is really important except for finishing it. The people that want ReactOS most are knowledgeable users that want an o/s that is free from the shackles of Microsoft's business drivers, an o/s where their programs run without the threat of not working one day just because Microsoft have removed or broken an essential component. 64 bit in this context is merely "a nice to have", a badge for ReactOS that will bring dividends in the future when it is done. A 64 bit version of ReactOS is under development and it will come but it is NOT a priority.
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VA1DER
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by VA1DER »

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:17 pm
For most practical purposes 64bit processes are not really required and currently 32bit proves to be enough for the majority of applications that are not massively memory hungry. For most users, 64bit is really nothing more than a badge on their software that makes them "feel up-to-date".
This is the same kind of arguments that came out of Linux distribution maintainers about a decade ago. Now, of course, you are hard pressed to find a 32-bit capable Linux distribution. I'll say the same thing here I said then. The decision between 32 and 64 bit has almost never been about memory footprint. It's far more complex than that, and I'm sure you well know that. I suspect that this lecture comes from the constant request for something this project can not yet provide. Fair enough, I can understand people asking for something you can't give can be an irritant. But berating people who are looking for 64 bit and marginalizing their usage cases as being shallow and only for appearances is not helpful to anyone.

People come to ReactOS for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they want a quick windows-compatible OS to test out that suspect piece of software. Maybe they have a self-contained Windows app they want to deploy. Maybe they are a hobbyist. In the end, they are the ones who get to define their usage cases. Either you can support it, or not support it. But you don't get to tell people what their usage cases should be, or judge whether those usage cases are valid or invalid.

If aiming at 32-bit only for the time being is your way of providing the widest possible usage case for the least input, then fair enough for that too. That, of course, is your complete prerogative. Personally, as tempting as it is to aim for the low hanging fruit before moving on, I think this is a mistake. The software people are going to look to run on or deploy with ReactOS will, for the most part, have external factors which determine whether it is 32 or 64 bit. You are intentionally aiming at a shrinking usage case. "Oh, but ReactOS is only going to shoot for 32-bit for the foreseeable future, we better make sure our entire platform is 32-bit clean stem to stern" is not a discussion happening anywhere.

So sure, ReactOS developers get to 100% decide what ReactOS shoots for, and the only vote we get is with our feet. But when telling people that you're not going to be supporting their usage case any time soon, please avoid the arrogance of telling people that if their needs exceed your capabilities then their needs are dumb.

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irony
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by irony »

d1zt3mp3r is not one, who decides anything on ROS development direction, actually, there is no "underestimation" of the 64 bit version importance among those, who really decide something here, what is - the lack of developers. IIUC, there is only 1 real developer, who works on 64 bits - Timo Kreuzer.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by dizt3mp3r »

I think that is the point really, it is nothing to do with aiming at low hanging fruit, ReactOS development is simply quite slow - that one developer working on the 64bit version, so other than that ReactOS is currently a 32bit target. As I said above, for true 64 bit use case you already have a solution and that is Windows.

My last line above says it all "A 64 bit version of ReactOS is under development and it will come but it is NOT a priority." I'm reporting what I see. I'd love to have a working ReactOS that is 64bit but realistically, a working ReactOS, 32 or 64bit is a long time into the future.

For your information, no developers currently frequent the forums and so at the moment you will only read the opinions of those that care to respond. If you want to change the direction of ReactOS then you can do so by joining the developer team, contributing code and helping.
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darrellnioa
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by darrellnioa »

However, bear in mind that modern oses such as Windows 10 are memory hungry requiring a gig of RAM just to operate but ReactOS is most likely to run in an efficient and slimline fashion regarding memory usage.

middings
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by middings »

Rocket engineers have a saying, "To build a big rocket that flies, start with a small rocket that flies." Rocket engineering projects that start by trying to build an ambitiously big rocket usually end up with big explosions and nothing that flies.

Microsoft Windows started as a platform that ran on top of a well-understood 16 bit DOS (which itself was based on a well-understood 8-bit operating system). Each iteration of Windows was usually incremental, the successful ones were usually the versions that were refinements. The versions that were attempts by Microsoft to make big leaps forward are the original Windows NT [strike]3.5[/strike] 3.1, Vista, and Windows 8.

I applaud the ambitious developers who are at work porting ReactOS to 64 bits. I applaud even more the developers whose ambition is to produce a ReactOS that flies reliably, even if it is a more modest 32-bit program.

edited 12/15
Last edited by middings on Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

hbelusca
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by hbelusca »

> the original Windows NT 3.5

the original Windows NT 3.1 :)

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Helusca is one of the devs!
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middings
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Re: Little idea about 64 bit problem

Post by middings »

Thanks, hbelusca.

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