I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

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AlanP
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I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

This could end up as a very long and rambling post. Sorry in advance and I'll try not to to be too wordy.

It could also be viewed as offensive or at least annoying, and I may come across as an insufferable ass. Again, apologies in advance.

See, my dream is this:

I help you guys 'sell' ROS to the general public, specifically seeking to swipe users away from Microsoft and towards ROS. I also use my skills and knowledge to help you guys in various other ways, but my primary aim being to help people find freedom from Microsoft's evil ways.

This bit is important - it's NOT because I feel selling software, or anything, for a profit is wrong, NOT because I think everything on the Internet should be free, NOT because of following the general mind-set of most of the free, open source software (FOSS) community.

Because I believe humanity in general deserves more than the following choices:
  • Windows - moving ever more to the dark side, including now operating as a "service" that can and doubtless will screw the user ever more
    Mac - gouging the gullible with ever-more-stupid pricing, dongles and snobbishness
    Linux - a splintered mess that for the most part is unfriendly to normal people and even the friendly developers don't actually want a bigger market share
In my dream ROS becomes a growing movement as much as an OS, for people to take a stand against the snooping, tracking, forced updates, built-in outdating, and generally having their OS yanked out from under them on a regular but illogical basis.

I could go on but I guess that covers the basics!

So my question is this - do you guys, the core developers, share that dream? Or not?

I ask because in the world of FOSS this seems maybe different, maybe a different vision?

On your website you talk of helping to promote ROS, so I guess my secondary question is "Why?" Why do you care if more people use it? I'm hoping it's because you share my dream but I dunno, so I'm asking.

Thanks

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Well, to be honest, yes. I can't speak with regard to most of the developers as most don't frequent here that much. However we all have our motivations with regard to wanting ReactOS. I suggest you look at this: https://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15868
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karlexceed
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by karlexceed »

AlanP wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:48 pm
swipe users away from Microsoft and towards ROS
ROS isn't ready for daily-use users.
AlanP wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:48 pm
my skills and knowledge
Which are?
AlanP wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:48 pm
So my question is this - do you guys, the core developers, share that dream? Or not?

I ask because in the world of FOSS this seems maybe different, maybe a different vision?

On your website you talk of helping to promote ROS, so I guess my secondary question is "Why?" Why do you care if more people use it? I'm hoping it's because you share my dream but I dunno, so I'm asking.
I think people like ROS for various different reasons. Does it really matter what the "why" is, if the goal (ROS as a viable, daily-use OS) is the same?

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

Well, to be honest, yes.
Wahoo! *punches air :D

OK...
ROS isn't ready for daily-use users.
Absolutely, I have only just discovered ROS but my impression is it's been something like 10 years and still in alpha, ie pre-beta, and impossible to give any date when it will be ready, right?

However I also hear this comes down to being only about 5 current coders, working part time? So if we could raise interest, we could, perhaps:
  • Figure out marketing to raise some more awareness - and funding
    Build up the brand and positioning
    Find more coders willing to help
    Important - find a way to give the current and then additional coders due credit
that last one is indeed important, for quite a number of reasons, including simple fairness.

You (Karl) asked about my skills and knowledge. Mmm, I don't actually see the rules anywhere..? Anyway I won't post a link publicly but will PM you my website. Anyone else feel free to PM me.

In a nutshell - I'm not a coder but I used to sell software and ebooks, learning about the sales and marketing side while paying others for the technical bits. Over time I found myself helping others do the same thing and that became my calling, to the point it's what I do now. In fact I don't think I have any of my old websites left now? Nope, just the original one, which I don't have the heart to close, bless it. Awww.

I'm what's known as a "copywriter", which has nothing to do with copyright but everything to do with writing and selling by the written word.

I also study "UX" or User Experience (not the same as User Interface, though it covers that kind of thing) and in general what's known as a 'CRO', or "Conversion Rate Optimizer".

In short, I help companies convert more of their website visitors into buyers, as well as writing brochures, press releases, white papers, direct ('junk') mail etc.

I do not do things such as link-building, SEO, coding, HTML/CSS, PHP or any of that stuff. Usually I don't do "content" such as blog posts, but this isn't a usual project, so maybe possible...

IMPORTANT: Would I like glory? Absolutely, love the stuff. Would I like money? Absolutely, love that stuff too - but I know you don't have any budget for CRO!

Do you a deal - if I can help you so much that you get to the stage you can afford to pay me, then pay me already. Otherwise don't worry about; make it a token fee of $5 per month or something.

As an aside, my standard fee is $1750 per project or per month, and that's on the low side for an experienced (15 years) copywriter. A normal fee would be something like $2500 to $5000 - but again, I'm not here for the money, k?

But hey, $5 is $5.
Does it really matter what the "why" is, if the goal (ROS as a viable, daily-use OS) is the same?
Yes, the reason/s why absolutely do make a difference :geek:

First it changes if I'm willing to put my time and effort into helping. I'm a big L Libertarian capitalist, and while I have respect for most in the FOSS community and fully accept that they mean well, we kind of butt heads on the "everything should be free" thing*.

It's not just political - if ROS founders don't want money or don't want to "taint' the project with money-based efforts then it's likely to stay where pretty much all FOSS projects stay, on the fringes, with little growth or traction, no money for offering support or even proper documentation etc.

The other big thing is "positioning". The link to the 50+ reasons for ROS is incredible, it's great. From a marketing point of view it's pants.

It's best to come up with the Top 3 Reasons for ROS - and repeat those, over and over - own it. Own the adjectives. Google owns Googling, Hoover owns Hoovering, what is ROS? It can't be a list of 50 things, but we're too new (as a concept) for a single word. So pick 3.

People like 3. :)

In fact you just had a taste, the kind of advice I give, and 'the Top 3 Reasons for ROS' is the kind of writing I do. :ugeek:

I should point out I'm not really thinking in terms of public forum posts, more getting together online for discussions, Whatsapp, Telegram, Slack, Skype even. Please don't ask me to "IRC", I don't even know what that means. I used "IRQ" years ago, but can we not? ;)

Anyway, that's what I'm offering, a totally NON-technical sales and marketing guy on the team, hoping to help you start building some momentum.

Some pointers:

Yes, it means moving outside your comfort zone, changing things a bit. Always uncomfy I know.
Yes it means bringing new people in, hopefully. Also uncomfortable.
Yes it means being money-grubbing capitalist pigs, brainstorming for ways to raise cash, even if it's just doing a better job of selling T shirts
Yes I can be an annoying, opinionated bully, but I AM good at this stuff and it's for your own benefit.
No, I don't have any money or spare software coders to give you.
No I'm not making any big promises - but I can give you some of my spare time, if you want it?

Whaddya say?


Alan

*I'm aware you may be already tied into some open source licensing that prevents you charging directly? If not, don't go there! If you are, well we can figure out other stuff :|

Ancient
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by Ancient »

Alan,
Start a fundme for ROS take 25% off the top. ROS needs USB boot, it needs to finish 32 bit support. See if you can get these folks $100K with only the promise the funds will be used 25% by you, 5% or whatever by the fundme site, and the remainder by ROS developers to expedite the free beta.

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

A 'fundme' thing is very much what I'm thinking of, but at a later stage.

No, no skimming like that. I want ROS to succeed. Money is not my motivation.

Besides, I'm famous (at least among my peers) for my low, fixed fee, regardless of the project :)

With a fundme campaign you need a more solid promise than what we have now, ie a decade of work and no beta yet. I DO understand that's actually great progress, but it's progress like someone crossing the Atlantic in a canoe who already did 100 miles. It's great for what it is, but we're gonna need a bigger boat, kind of thing?

For example suppose we could raise the team, add another 30 developers, all of whom pledge to work a year full-time if funded? Literally I just woke up and this is off the top of my head; it needs discussion and figuring out, some "KPI" (Key Point Indicators) and specifics. What is our time line right now, and my impression it's so vague we don't actually have one, right? What would it take for a more solid time line?

Am I correct in saying it's currently 5 part time developers?

If we could raise enough funding for one of those to go full-time, what difference would that make?

2?

If all 5 could become full-time?

10 full-time developers?

You guys tell me, what would it take for us to be able to promise a "Google beta", ie the real thing, but with a beta get-out clause for the inevitable minor bugs?

We also need a lawyer or two, or a team of 'em, and other things but right now the coders are the rock stars - and also the bottleneck.

What would it take to offer a solid time line?

A 5 year time line?

A 1 year time line?


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njlyf2011
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by njlyf2011 »

ReactOS does not exist for the average user to accept ReactOS.
First, it is not stable enough, and ordinary consumers cannot accept an operating system that can go wrong even when doing office operations. Second, if you promote "Open Source" "Free Software" to consumers, at least it is useless in my area, because consumers pay attention to ease and beauty, the above two words are too illusory for them.

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

if you promote "Open Source" "Free Software" to consumers, at least it is useless in my area
I fully agree; ROS would need rebranding and positioning as something standing apart and different from the general FOSS aspects.

It can operate within the confines of the GNU or whatever it is, but with a slightly different purpose or approach. Essentially something (needs work!) along the lines of "We want to effectively own our computers AND the operating system, so we can buy whatever software we want, set our computers up however we want, without being yanked around on a chain by Microsoft or kicked in the wallet by Apple".

That's not quite the same as FOSS, which frowns even on using paid software for FOSS OS such as distros of Linux. Not so much "We can use Libre or Open Office or WPS or..", and more a case of "We paid for Office 2007 dammit, we LIKE it and don't want to be forced to change to monthly renting of Office 365, just to please Microsoft shareholders".

Much of the English-speaking world - I can't speak for other places - has an 'aging population", meaning more older people, fewer younger people. Without going into the politics of it all, what that means is there are literally millions, billions, of people like me, maybe like you. Old enough to remember, and want to keep, the idea of us owning (a perpetual license for) OUR operating system.

FOSS has developed a lot of baggage and a bad reputation, some of it undeserved perhaps but it's a thing, such as:

You're experiencing a problem with our software? Well go write your own software then!
Docs? We don't have time for no proper docs, we're volunteeeers, geddit?
Why didn't you look in the docs? That's one of the very few things that actually is in the docs!
Software? Why would there be software? There's no money in it to write software. We're not about money, we're about freedom!
Wait, didn't you Google the internet for at least 2 weeks, before asking your stupid question? Nooob!

Etc etc.

Let's not do that?


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middings
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by middings »

OK, AlanP, I'll step up to your challenge of describing the future released-to-production ReactOS in three words: Mine, Trusty, Strong.

And yes, there is more than a bit of If We Build It, They Will Come to the ReactOS project.

With that out of the way, I'd like to respond at length to this:
AlanP wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:33 am
FOSS has developed a lot of baggage and a bad reputation, some of it undeserved perhaps but it's a thing, such as:

You're experiencing a problem with our software? Well go write your own software then!
Docs? We don't have time for no proper docs, we're volunteeeers, geddit?
Why didn't you look in the docs? That's one of the very few things that actually is in the docs!
Software? Why would there be software? There's no money in it to write software. We're not about money, we're about freedom!
Wait, didn't you Google the internet for at least 2 weeks, before asking your stupid question? Nooob!
"We are confronted with insurmountable opportunities."--Pogo

Oh dear.

FOSS developers are rightly unhappy with people who complain about "a problem" with software they obtained at no cost yet make no effort to clearly describe the problem they see. Add to that the people who demand/urge/insist/nudge the developer to drop his goals for the project and turn all his efforts toward fulfilling some wish list of their own and "Well go write your own software then!" is a reasonable response.

"Docs?" If the only FOSS developers were the rare people who have the skill and desire to both (a) write quality software and (b) document it well for the end user, there would be no significant FOSS projects in existence at all. Sure, I wish that weren't so but no amount of wishing that weren't so will change it. (By the way, looking at those who have writing skills, I notice there are very few top authors who give their works away gratis just in the hope that someone else might find them worthwhile.) I have participated in many organizations built upon the efforts of "volunteeeers", I have learned that volunteers mostly do what they prefer doing and do very little of what they detest. Pressing volunteers to do what they don't want to do tends to drive the volunteers away, never to be seen again.

"We're not about money, we're about freedom!" That is crazy talk very much like "find freedom from Microsoft's evil ways", isn't it?

"Why didn't you look in the docs?" Yeah, why didn't you? If you had, then you should have also mentioned where in the docs (documentation) you looked. Or mentioned where you would have looked, had the docs included those terms in their index or list of chapters and sub-topics. Don't be just a taker, give some useful help back.

"(D)idn't you Google the internet... before asking...?" How about searching the Web for 2 minutes? Then, if you didn't find an answer to your question, write up your question clearly and precisely. Be sure to also describe the Web searches you made while attempting to find an answer yourself.

So here we are, standing surrounded by insurmountable opportunities.

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

Mine, Trusty, Strong
Awesome :)

Simply 3 concepts would be good, to nail it in 3 words is excellent. And yeah, mine, trusty and strong are words I'd use too, though I might substitute 'strong' for 'smart'?

I generally agree with what you (Middings) say regarding FOSS. Let me counter your counter points ;)
FOSS developers are rightly unhappy with people who complain about "a problem" with software they obtained at no cost yet make no effort to clearly describe the problem they see.
OK, I can give you a direct example from today/last night, in a minute. Yeah, there are plenty of people out there that are aholes, or who are simply inarticulate, or perhaps daft enough to be trying to type on a phone, and so try to communicate without using enough words or whatever.

Sometimes though, they just don't have the words, though that doesn't excuse being rude or failing to make any effort.

Let me back up a bit though, regarding "at no cost"...

There IS a cost. One of my biggest concerns when selling a client's software is trying to sell the free trial. It's not really "free" because it will cost the visitor time, time to look at the page, some screenshots, testimonials, machine specs or whatever. Then time to download, to run their virus checker on it, to figure out where the download went.. and then installing or registering or whatever. Then they have to figure out how to use the thing. You can suck down an entire afternoon just looking at 1 or 2 software free trials - and those are polished, user-friendly commercial products.

FOSS stuff is often... Not.

Some of it is, and some is great, once you get past the initial learning curve.

Thing is, FOSS products don't usually have dedicated UX peeps or writers like me, they may have graphic designers and look great, but no usability experts helping with the UI.

I promised an example - I'm transitioning my laptop over to Linux. Because it had Windows10 on it. One simple but useful little app I've used for many years is "Treepad". It's nothing too fancy, just a little hierarchy thingy that makes it easy to store notes about a project or whatever. So I spent an entire day faffing around trying to find a suitable Linux replacement (there's a Linux version of it but it doesn't seem to work).

Settled for "Cherrytree".

On Windows the text has a normal white background with black writing. For some reason on the Linux install the background is dark blue, with white writing. Urgh.

I DID RTFM. Found how to change "text background" but that just gave me a white strip behind my writing (and the white writing invisible). I googled it, wasting an hour or so. Finally decided to find the forum and be treated like an idiot... but wait! They had a simple "contact", no need for a forum? Cool - so wrote, asked politely, and the very next day, got a polite reply, telling me to go to preferences and change the theme.

Nice guy, great software, would buy him a beer - but take a guess where "preferences" was hiding? I looked everywhere, before finally spotting it under "Edit".

As a Windows user I'd never expect to find preferences for the software under edit, because that should be for the document! It was also at the very top of the edit menu, while preferences or options are usually at the bottom.

Even after I found the preferences, I couldn't find "themes"?

Because I knew it was there, because the guy who wrote it said so, I kept digging - there it was, under "Tree". So I changed the theme of the tree, done!

Except that only changed the right hand menu tree, not the main text of my documents?

Only the fact I had the Windows version with a white background kept me at it, as I knew it was possible to change this... So I kept digging around.

If by now you're thinking "Jeez Alan! This is turning into a really long post. Get to the point!" - that IS my point.

It's not free. My time, effort and attention is not worthless, not to me, not to my wife, not to my clients etc.

I did eventually find it. See, you can select between 'rich text' or 'plain text and code' - because this, of course, is coded by a coder. For coders.

IF you select Rich Text then you can see a menu to change the 'theme' for the text!!

That would never, ever, get past any form of user-testing of any Windows product. On the bright side, this was a pleasant enough FOSS experience, with good software that hasn't crashed yet, is actually a bit better than Treepad, from a nice enough guy who is helpful and lets you contact him directly. I wish I could say the same for other FOSS experiences but I cannot.
"Why didn't you look in the docs?" Yeah, why didn't you?
From the same Cherrytree example... I find even with a nice white background and black text, wherever my cursor is, the entire line is dark blue or gray. But again, not in the Windows version?

Where in the docs should I look, for something I don't even know the name of? That's some kind of codey feature for coders who get lost in the code, and presumably something I can turn off - but I don't even know what it's called. How am I supposed to search for it?

I hope he's still patient, because I wrote to him again. Sorry but I want a tool I can use; I just don't have time to figure this out.

If a commercial product then yes, rude and annoying people would be asking "How do you turn off this crappy blue thing? It's stupid!" etc. But then again they can use that feedback to create a better, easier to use product, get more sales, more resources, make it even better and so on.

So I absolutely agree:

If I want better software I could write it myself, implausible as that may be, I could read the manual and Google and forums and stuff, I could take time out to patiently explain how I, as a normal person, expect certain things to be in certain places and how confusing I find the FOSS thing etc etc.

I agree.

That's part of the frustration of FOSS (FoFOSS). Nobody can argue with those points - but they suck anyway!

But imagine if you could write an open source version of Windows, and avoid all of the above confusion etc?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's why this excites me. This is way better than Linux. This is, potentially, Windows without Microsoft (tm) 8-)



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PurpleGurl
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by PurpleGurl »

Okay, some of my thoughts, even if some might have been stated here already. First off, Microsoft isn't the enemy. It isn't (or at least wasn't) inherently evil, just a business. Most of us are not driven by hatred towards Microsoft. "Diz" did well giving the list of motivations for using ROS.

(Even Adobe has moved in the direction of software as a service, though maybe their motivation was piracy as they were caught in a vicious cycle. The more it was pirated the more they charged and the more they charged, the more it was pirated, and activation schemes did nothing to really stop the piracy. So they moved to a subscription model. Thus if you just want to try it, you can pay for just a 1-3 months of usage rather than get it illegally, and if you like it, you can keep paying. I dislike the "rental" model as you generally pay more in the long run. Like if you have a rent-to-own agreement to buy furniture, you might wear it out before you get it paid off, and by that point, you could have bought two had you just bought it directly.)

Now, persuading the masses to use ROS can be a good idea. That would be the impetus to have more developers. If folks decide Windows is untenable, then they might be more willing to invest time or money in this direction. So they would realize that they'd either have to write whatever missing functionality or pay someone who can.

And yes, open source tends to carry negative baggage for some people. Some see it as unfinished software. I used to be turned off by the obsession so many open source designers had with animals in their logos (GNU, Tux, the "rooster" in the installers) which were often crudely drawn, though I don't care anymore. And yes, sometimes the docs that come with open source projects are useless. That was an initial perception I had, that they cared more about their hard to read license than telling you how to use it. But I tend to plunge first then read docs, so no biggie for me.
Last edited by PurpleGurl on Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

But I tend to plunge first then read docs
Most people do, which is where user-testing comes in. ;)

Regarding Microsoft being the enemy, to me they certainly are now. In the past I have stoutly defended them, usually against Mac lovers, and indeed against Linux users too. That was then.

That was before they joined Google in being evil.


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karlexceed
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by karlexceed »

AlanP wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:24 pm
You (Karl) asked about my skills and knowledge. Mmm, I don't actually see the rules anywhere..?
It was really just a question. You proposed to use your skills to help ROS in some nebulous way, but didn't explain what your skills were or how exactly you'd help.
AlanP wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:24 pm
it's been something like 10 years and still in alpha
...
only about 5 current coders, working part time?
22 years. With over 120 contributors, nearly 80 of which have been active in the last 2 year period, according to GitHub.

hbelusca
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by hbelusca »

As soon as you submit at least 1 patch you are counted as a contributor, so... And this number is a sum over the whole lifespan of ReactOS.
What you should look at, and to me makes more sense, is the number of active contributors per year together with the intensity of commits. What would define "active" contributors would be those who make a certain number of commits per year above some threshold, i.e. has some "presence" / intensity of commits (e.g. if you just do 1 commit per year, that 's not what I would qualify as "active" contributor.... Yet such a contributor would be counted in the GitHub list).

Example: I display here: https://github.com/reactos/reactos/grap ... -04&type=c the list of contributors for just a narrow (yes...) range of almost 3 years (~= 1095 days). If you naively read this you find 79 contributors. Are they all "active"? If you place a threshold of ~= 100 commits in 3 years, you find around 13 to 20 contributors. If your threshold is now about 1 commit per week (== 7 days, so for 1095 days you put 156 commits), you go down to 10 "active" contributors (with some tolerance). If now you want to see the contributors that make 2 commits or more per week approx., you find only 7 "active" contributors.

Note that by using these same criteria the number of "active" contributors for the period 2012 to 2018 : https://github.com/reactos/reactos/grap ... -04&type=c , you will end up with the same number too.

Of course one has to be very careful (which I were not here), because one has also to take into account for the date of arrival of the contributors into the project.

AlanP
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Re: I Have a Dream... You Might Hate it

Post by AlanP »

Karl, when I mentioned the rules that was just me mumbling out loud, as I was wondering if I should/could link to my site. Decided against it and tried to PM you, but seems I'm too new for PMs.

Hi belusca :) Thank you for your efforts.
22 years. With over 120 contributors, nearly 80 of which have been active in the last 2 year period, according to GitHub.
Well that sounds reasonably promising (the 80 active, rather than the 22 year thing)

Looking at the graph there's been no great acceleration lately, but on the very bright side, no sign of it dropping off either.

How have things changed over the 22 years? Do you have new software tools or methods available? I guess what I'm try to ask, how do you feel things are going?

Would you see say see a faster rate of progress than in previous years? Slower? The same?

I'm sure you're tired of people asking but I will anyway - If someone held a gun to your head and you absolutely had to give a vague guess at a time-line to beta, are we thinking double digits, 10 years plus, or less?

And what's the biggest thing holding you back?

Cheers!



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