6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

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theuserbl
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6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by theuserbl » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:06 am

In the german news at
https://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/ ... 10273.html
there was recapitulate the english blog entry at
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/bharry ... he-planet/

The point is in the last paragraph:
The codebase of Windows have ca. 3.5 million files and have a complete size of 300 GByte. The ca. 4000 employees producing daily 1760 "Lab Builds" and 440 branches. Daily comming 2500 pull request, which 6600 developer verify.
In the forum someone replys to the article with the following text
https://www.heise.de/forum/heise-Develo ... 4411/show/
During the reading of the last paragraph I though on ReactOS

How hopeless the venture is, wanting to create a compatible, free system with a small amount of enthusiasts in comparison to the huge amount on Microsofts side. There you don't run for evermore behind, but you will also daily repeatedly lapped.
Greatings
theuserbl

dizt3mp3r
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:54 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by dizt3mp3r » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:56 am

They are quite right in some respects - in that a small band of developers is striving (and successfully) to create a Windows binary compatible o/s with a traditional Windows style GUI. What they have failed to understand is that unlike Microsoft the ReactOS team have not set a goal that is ever changing and which never ever ends, no GUI redesigns here with the sole aim of moving the goalposts. The target of server 2003 compatibility is achievable. It is a static task and ReactOS is approaching that goal incrementally. The fact that a very large number of Windows programs already run demonstrably on ReactOS, albeit without full stability as yet, is a testament to how much has already been achieved. ReactOS is enticingly close to beta and perhaps they don't understand that...

I suggest that those thousands of developers indicate only unwarranted complexity within Windows or as we all suspect 'software bloat'. It might also indicate that those teams are much larger than they need to be and developing changes that never, ever make it into Windows.

Perhaps someone should join that forum and point this out.

dizt3mp3r
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:54 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by dizt3mp3r » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:25 am

I am also going to point out that this is another of theuserbl's posts where he draws attention to ReactOS' supposed inadequacies. We have no need of you stirring the pot theuserbl. I would gently suggest that you possibly post more favourably next time if you don't want to earn the epithet of a stalking troll.

P.S. It is 'greetings'.

theuserbl
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:49 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by theuserbl » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:13 am

dizt3mp3r wrote:I am also going to point out that this is another of theuserbl's posts where he draws attention to ReactOS' supposed inadequacies. We have no need of you stirring the pot theuserbl. I would gently suggest that you possibly post more favourably next time if you don't want to earn the epithet of a stalking troll.
What I write are thoughts I have.
And I found the comment in the heise-forum interesting and the mentiond part in the heise-news interesting. Thats the reason, why I have written it here. And I want to know, what the ReactOS-people thinking about it.
And if you have seen the original post, you can see, that it was marked as "green".
If a lot of people agree or like a post there, it will be green. If a lot of people disagree or dislike a post there, it will be red. So I am not the only one, who agree what the author have written.
There existing different problems with Windows, ReactOS, Linux, *BSD, macOS, ... and so on.
Do you really thing, that it is better to not talk about problems?

Btw: there existing themes, where the ReactOS-people and WINE-people don't want to talk about
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16469

For me, that are all interesting questions.
Actually ReactOS will be compatible to Windows Server 2003. But if they have reached its goal, they will be moving on to Windows 7 or so.
If you know how many people working on Windows from Microsoft, you can think about it, how many years it will take for ReactOS to move on from Windows Server 2003 compatiblity to Windows 7 compatiblity.

And to mention again the thing where ReactOS and WINE don't want to talk about: It is really a problem, that they don't doing it. Because if you want to support both projects (with money or code), but don't wanting that both reinventing the wheel again for its own, which project is better to support?
WINE don't take the code of ReactOS. And ReactOS takes only sometimes the code of WINE. So, both have a lack of developer, but they don't cooperate and sharing its code with each other, because they think, that it is better, to do it for its own.
I would gently suggest that you possibly post more favourably next time
Do you mean that as joke??
P.S. It is 'greetings'.
Oh, thanks.

Greetings
theuserbl

Fraizeraust
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Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by Fraizeraust » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:59 pm

theuserbl wrote: Actually ReactOS will be compatible to Windows Server 2003. But if they have reached its goal, they will be moving on to Windows 7 or so.
If you know how many people working on Windows from Microsoft, you can think about it, how many years it will take for ReactOS to move on from Windows Server 2003 compatiblity to Windows 7 compatiblity.
So what are you waiting for? Give ReactOS Team a hand, a donation or at least advertise ReactOS to other places (in a genuine way) if you're not a programmer/coder in C/C++ and geek over Windows related stuff.
theuserbl wrote:WINE don't take the code of ReactOS. And ReactOS takes only sometimes the code of WINE. So, both have a lack of developer, but they don't cooperate and sharing its code with each other, because they think, that it is better, to do it for its own.
Uh, actually both WINE and ReactOS Team were and still cooperate together. Could you please provide some sources of your facts? Moreover ReactOS only takes some code from WINE for the userland part such as Services and System libs, the rest is everything from ground up.

milon
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:26 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by milon » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:56 pm

dizt3mp3r wrote:I am also going to point out that this is another of theuserbl's posts where he draws attention to ReactOS' supposed inadequacies. We have no need of you stirring the pot theuserbl. I would gently suggest that you possibly post more favourably next time if you don't want to earn the epithet of a stalking troll.
IMO, theuserbl didn't come across as trolling or anything else negative. It wasn't his original content. He was drawing our attention to something negative existing elsewhere that we might not have known about otherwise - I certainly wouldn't have known about it. And I appreciate being informed. You don't have to appreciate it yourself, but your criticism isn't justified either.

PurpleGurl
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Location: USA

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by PurpleGurl » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:31 pm

Fraizeraust wrote:
theuserbl wrote:WINE don't take the code of ReactOS. And ReactOS takes only sometimes the code of WINE. So, both have a lack of developer, but they don't cooperate and sharing its code with each other, because they think, that it is better, to do it for its own.
Uh, actually both WINE and ReactOS Team were and still cooperate together. Could you please provide some sources of your facts? Moreover ReactOS only takes some code from WINE for the userland part such as Services and System libs, the rest is everything from ground up.
There was a hiatus on the 2 projects sharing for a brief bit after what happened around 2007. But that controversy has passed.

Other than that, there are some design decisions and the nature of both projects that mean that not all code can be shared.

Cyber Toon
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by Cyber Toon » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:23 pm

Should also keep in mind that Windows 8+ is mostly focused on metro, and the last major update to desktop programs was Vista.

theuserbl
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:49 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by theuserbl » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:32 pm

Fraizeraust wrote:
theuserbl wrote:WINE don't take the code of ReactOS. And ReactOS takes only sometimes the code of WINE. So, both have a lack of developer, but they don't cooperate and sharing its code with each other, because they think, that it is better, to do it for its own.
Uh, actually both WINE and ReactOS Team were and still cooperate together. Could you please provide some sources of your facts? Moreover ReactOS only takes some code from WINE for the userland part such as Services and System libs, the rest is everything from ground up.
Show me one file in WINE with ReactOS (C) 2017 or ReactOS (C) 2016.
They don't use code from ReactOS!

I'm not sure, what really happend.
That have also to do, that Ge (Greg) van Geldorp and other people have left ReactOS and some people like he goes to WINE.

If I remember right, it have something to do, that WINE makes clean room reverse engineering and ReactOS reverse engineering, but not clean room.

Greatings
theuserbl

Konata
Posts: 391
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Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by Konata » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:23 pm

theuserbl wrote:
Show me one file in WINE with ReactOS (C) 2017 or ReactOS (C) 2016.
They don't use code from ReactOS!

I'm not sure, what really happend.
That have also to do, that Ge (Greg) van Geldorp and other people have left ReactOS and some people like he goes to WINE.

If I remember right, it have something to do, that WINE makes clean room reverse engineering and ReactOS reverse engineering, but not clean room.

Greatings
theuserbl
And, why would ReactOS have copyright over any part of WINE?
ReactOS devs push fixes to bugs in WINE that affect ReactOS. There's a ton of examples of this in the JIRA comments of various bug reports. The ReactOS Foundation doesn't own it's employees, they can write code for other projects and it doesn't belong to ReactOS.

middings
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Location: California, USA

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by middings » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:26 pm

theuserbl wrote:If I remember right...
You do not "remember right".


Konata
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by Konata » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:34 am

dizt3mp3r wrote:He's a trolliwoll.
Either that or he has an an extreme grudge against WINE that boarders on concerning.
I don't see the point in trying to rationalize away actual facts just so you can say ReactOS doesn't use any external libraries. It actually uses a lot of external things, because that's one less thing the developers have to do which means one more thing the developers now have the time to do.

middings
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Location: California, USA

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by middings » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:36 am

theuserbl wrote:Show me one file in WINE with ReactOS (C) 2017 or ReactOS (C) 2016.
They don't use code from ReactOS!
Konata wrote:And, why would ReactOS have copyright over any part of WINE?
Good question, Konata. Theuserbl misunderstands how open source projects manage copyrights. The ReactOS project's Intellectual Property Guideline document states, "Each developer maintains his or her copyright in the developed source code, but licenses that code under the GPL or other suitable license for use by the ReactOS Project." (Paragraph II A)

When a developer working on ReactOS code sends code upstream to the Wine project, the developer makes licensing and/or copyright assignment agreement(s) with Wine. This is a common practice for open source projects. This practice explains the lack of "ReactOS (C) 2017" or similar strings in Wine code contributed by developers who also contributed the same code to ReactOS.

dizt3mp3r
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Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:54 pm

Re: 6600 Microsoft developer on Windows

Post by dizt3mp3r » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:46 pm

That daft comment by that developer referred to in the O.P...

When you look at what the MS devs are working on : https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/m ... bug-fixes/ - you realise that they are mainly working on their very own bugs those that they have introduced within the new functionality MS has recently added. The core o/s, the fundamentals of the o/s remain fundamentally the same and so once ReactOS team has built a stable NT5 binary compatible system they will have largely caught up with MS. ReactOS will be a usable and stable o/s that can run Windows apps and drivers. A baseline.

The NT6 security model, NT6 APIs, DirectX 11 compatibility, and the other components that comprise an NT6 system may come later but a usable and comparable ReactOS arrives when NT5 compatibility is achieved.

All the newer MS accretions are just incremental improvements to the base o/s (not a complete rewrite) or simply changes to the tools/desktop interface designed to try to gain some tablet acceptance for Windows. I suspect ReactOS will NEVER go down this latter route. That Microsoft engineer thinks the ReactOS team want to emulate the experience of Windows 8 & 10? - far from it. The ReactOS team don't have any catching up to do in this respect.

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