Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

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R A V E N
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Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by R A V E N » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:42 pm

1. Trying to bring ("convert") some of the hardcore Linux developers

dark
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by dark » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:39 pm

The only remotely realistic thing I see happening is for China to fund the project on the grounds that it takes a money stream away from a U.S. company.

Konata
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by Konata » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:55 pm

Ah, but that isn't possible. If linux devs get their heads out of their ass and knew anything about the architecture of NT, they'd stop using linux ;]

But no, the project doesn't need a bunch of loose cannons who wouldn't know what to do with themselves when they find they can't aimlessly mangle the project any way they want like they do with linux and it's API/ABI. What the project actually needs is A. people to decompile, understand, and document NT and B. people to implement those findings. That's what it needs. That's all it needs. If anyone with free time wants to do either of those, feel free.

R A V E N
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by R A V E N » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:01 pm

Isn't counter-compiling Windows for the purpose of learning about it in order to implement those things in ReactOS banned?

I hoped that some of the Linux developers are unhappy with the fact that Linux never won on desktops and notebooks market, so idea of "free Windows" would be more enticing.

I'm thinking about people who develops Linux kernel and things like KDE Plasma 5.

Z98
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by Z98 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:49 pm

Reverse engineering Windows components to learn about them is perfectly fine. De-compiling Windows components to directly put said decompiled code into ReactOS is a copyright violation and illegal and will piss us off monumentally if someone attempts it.

The majority of Linux kernel developers are not working on Linux for the sake of creating a desktop competitor to Windows. Their primary motivation is to basically craft an operating system that suits their needs, or in the case of the paid developers, the needs of their employers. They really don't give a damn about how suitable Linux is as a platform to build a desktop OS that is usable by the general public.

The user space developers tend to be a bit more in touch with the needs of the general public, but only to a certain degree. They however seek to create a different user experience than that what Windows provides, which would run counter to our goal.

R A V E N
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by R A V E N » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:41 am

They however seek to create a different user experience than that what Windows provides
Are you talking about those things like need to use terminal with textual commands for tasks which you can accomplish via GUIs in Windows?

Konata
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by Konata » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:10 am

R A V E N wrote:
They however seek to create a different user experience than that what Windows provides
Are you talking about those things like need to use terminal with textual commands for tasks which you can accomplish via GUIs in Windows?
No, there's a lot of technologies Windows implements that general Unixes do not. Most importantly, the standard Windows API and Environment Subsystems which allows one to completely change the underlying OS without breaking anything. Try replacing X11 or Systemd on Linux and you're in for a nasty surprise. Additionally, Windows implements Group Policy, The Registry, Usermode Drivers, COM+, etc. etc., which make life easier for developers and users alike. NT is designed very differently from generic Unix flavors, and for a reason, because it sees all of it's faults and corrects them, where it can, without compromising compatibility with existing Microsoft technologies.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by PurpleGurl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:35 am

Okay, I think Z98's post was taken out of context. He was saying that Linux kernel devs generally code for their own use or employers, and that while the user space Linux devs have a better grasp on what users want, it is usually things other than what is expected in Windows. So he's saying that the philosophies of Linux devs tend to be different from those developing something NT compatible. So while you might want to try your hand at getting Linux devs to come to our side, and you might gain a few devs, they might not necessarily have the same spirit as us, though I'd still try.

dark
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by dark » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:36 am

Out of curiosity, how much would a contract cost for getting the new CC done (and installing to ext2 works)? That seems like it would be the main thing to make the system run far more stably.

knowmad
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by knowmad » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:46 am

Any work done on the common cache will help any file system one intends to use with the OS. In light of the fact that the GSOC work on NTFS write support by Trevor (BTW Greatly appreciated as well as the other students' work) has accomplished and it might now be completed by someone else.Speaking for myself, it would be a great incentive to donate money ie: code bounty towards CC and/or NTFS development.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by PurpleGurl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:14 am

What I'd like to see is a bounty getting it to run on more real hardware, and maybe a bounty for SMP support. The CC is a good place too, though it sounds like it is getting closer to what we need.

dark
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by dark » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:32 am

knowmad wrote:Any work done on the common cache will help any file system one intends to use with the OS. In light of the fact that the GSOC work on NTFS write support by Trevor (BTW Greatly appreciated as well as the other students' work) has accomplished and it might now be completed by someone else.Speaking for myself, it would be a great incentive to donate money ie: code bounty towards CC and/or NTFS development.
The crash while installing on ext2 is practically notorious by now, and fixing the CC sounds like the it would be the most beneficial thing to fix. Also the last time I brought this up someone responded that the CC isn't related to the file system drivers. Community edition only met around half it's 50,000 goal, so if fixing CC costs less then $5000 it may be possible to simply raise enough money for it. We would probably only get donations from people that follow the project closely though.

R A V E N
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by R A V E N » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:26 pm

The only remotely realistic thing I see happening is for China to fund the project on the grounds that it takes a money stream away from a U.S. company.
It is not going to happen. Microsoft isn't even in the top 49 money-making companies in the world. But I'm unable to find out what is the currently best money-making product globally? Coca-Cola? I'm curious what's Windows position on that list.

Idea of having a master, whether it is United States, European Union, Russia, China or India is bad. Politics is very dirty business. You do not want ReactOS involved in all that stuff.

Let's say China and Russia form a pact in order to harm United States by damaging Microsoft's profit by creating alternative to Windows. Maybe they would not pick ReactOS? Maybe the would invest money into some new Linux distribution which would have improvements? And above all, they would invest a lot of money into promotion of that OS. Linux distributions are much more mature projects that ReactOS.

On the other side, lets say that Windows are most lucrative US product. Then China and Russia start financing ReactOS development, maybe even without any requirements, and it starts taking market share away from Windows. Soon CIA will have files on ReactOS developers and then... use your imagination.

Nations starts wars for economic gains. It is well known fact.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by PurpleGurl » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:04 pm

Actually, if they choose a non-MS OS, it won't be to harm the US economy. One model to explain this would be like thinking of a loan shark and a gambler. The loan shark might break the gambler's legs if they don't pay, but they generally won't kill them since dead people cannot pay off their debts.

Now, if China and Russia were to choose their own OS or one other than Windows, it would be more because of the following reasons:

1. Open source. They may feel they cannot trust closed source software for critical operations.

2. Security and backdoors. The US has some funny laws and is not the most friendly in terms of protecting the security of the users. The NSA may be urging major companies to insert backdoors to let them in, monitor your searches, allow them to manipulate/monitor the software on your PC, etc. So other nations may not like the idea of the US government spying on them through their operating systems.

3. The alleged "kill switch" feature in Win 8+. I've gone through the trouble of putting software that people wanted on such machines only for the machine to do a spontaneous repair installation and wipe out all the added software. Some believe it is because of installing pirated software, but really, if that is the case, they should just remove the offending app. I stand against even that since who is to decide what is offensive to have on my machine? Most think something should be done about piracy, certain types of pornography (child abuse, rape), certain types of violence (snuff films), criminal actions (phishing, drug dealing, spam, scams), etc. But where do you draw the line? Some would then want to remove things related to certain religions (or all but theirs), certain political parties, certain ideologies (socialism, conservatism, trade unions), those promoting LGBT behaviors/ideologies, things promoting dressing certain ways, etc. So once a mechanism to remove things exists, it can be abused, and hackers could delete things from your PC that they deem as unpopular or inconvenient for their cause.

4. Inability to use older software and being forced to buy new software. Once you bought a program, you should be able to use it indefinitely. You shouldn't have to buy it again to use it with a newer OS. So if you cannot get a Windows version to use the programs you own, then you might as well switch to Linux and use all the vast open source software available for it.

5. Desire for an OS that is unique to their nation as a form of national identity.

6. More control over users. For instance, China might want its national firewall to be integral to the OS. Right now, while the national firewall program is foisted on users and highly recommended to be installed (to keep the people from looking at unapproved or controversial things), it is not absolutely required, and AFAIK, not a crime to not have it installed. But if the government, schools/universities, companies, etc., are required to use a nationalized OS (see #5) and others are indirectly required to for "compatibility reasons" because they make it to where nothing else is compatible, then they can have more control over people without creating new totalitarian or "nanny state" sort of laws.
Last edited by PurpleGurl on Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

dark
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Re: Proposals for REALLY pushing this project forward

Post by dark » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:30 pm

Countries like China tried making their own Linux distro, they were all failures and Windows eventually crept in. Still hoping someone gives a quote for working full time on the CC.

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