Search in Shell!

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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by dsp8195 »

0. Version is nothing but a number.
1. Monthly "working" builds (just really handpicked from one of the "daily" ones) with full changelog (or just copypasted commit history) is what this project needs for good PR and the steady flow of bug reports and bugfixes. Twelve per year, with no guarantees of stable work - just make sure they install or boot (in case of LiveCD). Is it really that hard?
2. All numbered "releases" need to be purged into /dev/null, because they contain outdated code that is being mistaken for "the newest release" and generates bunch of false bug reports along with YouTube videos where ROS is called names.
3. Review patches as soon as possible, especially if they are minor or trivial or positively affecting how the vital core components work.
4. To both "sides" of the release disputing: shove your pride to where it itches the most. What you do is a poor excuse to turn this project into trashy mess, both literally and figuratively.

Your work is not done. Make it worthy. Listen to your extremely tiny "userbase", because without their feedback you are nothing.

Personally, I'm sick of exact the same problem this project faces year after year, at every damn level. I won't voice it out, it's obvious. It always was obvious.


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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by manuel »

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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by PurpleGurl »

Versions might be just a number, but making excessive fanfare about builds that are not significantly better than the previous only raises false hope. I am sure the devs want this project to be based on integrity, not mind games.

1. Really, monthly releases is not that necessary. If you want to showcase work, maybe add a revision history to the home page or something, with maybe a something dated weekly or monthly. The team is constantly making progress, but many don't know how the revision process here works. So just highlight that the daily builds are increasing. However, the problem here is not knowing which ones to highlight, since there might be serious bugs that make things less usable, or a spurious Wine sync that breaks a lot of things, all in a single revision. BTW, it barely works on real hardware or just a limited set, so expecting it to boot really is "that hard."

2. Purging the worst of the historical releases does sound like a good PR idea, or at least making it harder to find them. I've seen a few goofs along this like where someone would install a very old one and then complain it doesn't work, that the shell has a lot to be desired, etc. Then we realize they are using 0.02 or something.

3. Reviewing patches better sounds like a good idea. However, someone has to review them. The devs already have plenty on their plate, and do keep in mind they are volunteers. Now there are times when, unfortunately, some good patches have been missed while devs struggled to discover on their own what someone else has already found. I don't know about what to do to improve this, unless maybe they could trust the patch writers to prioritize them accurately or at least categorize what they do (crash fix,regression fix, new API, new feature, translation, cosmetic fix, typos, etc.). It would have been nice if the MSHTML patch were reviewed months earlier, for instance.

4. We should all remain civil and remember that the project is indeed more important than individual egos. I see both sides as healthy when kept within balance. We don't want to create too many releases in light of the current resources, since that means a lot of extra work, when that extra work would be better applied to coding. And yes, the public gets impatient and may make up "facts" when they hear nothing from an organization. It is like with secret societies, where members simply want their own private place, and the press says they are up to no good, since they equate silence with hiding, and hiding with bad things.

As for the userbase, they are larger than you may think, but I don't think the team has any delusions here. There is the saying, "If you build it, they will come." Well, it isn't built yet. It is showing shape and we all can begin to see what it is, but like has been said for a number of years, it is not ready for daily use yet. And if you are one of the lucky ones who can get it to work well on real hardware, then you are still advised not to place it alongside precious data (though the IO routines are much better now than when such warnings were first given).

It seems the developers are doing the best they can given the circumstances, limited support, and limited resources. If you think otherwise, then learn C and C++, maybe learn some assembly too, and gain an intimate knowledge of Windows Internals (and in ways that don't legally disqualify you). Then start submitting patches, talk your patches up a little bit in here and in IRC, and just keep plugging away at writing them. Then you might work your way to having full commit access as a developer. And if you know anyone who might be a good fit, then advise them of the same. Talk is cheap. There is a saying to put your money where your mouth is. If you don't have money for donations, maybe you can become a developer and build some "sweat equity"* in the project.

(* - "Sweat equity" comes from the organization, Habitat for Humanity. Yes, they build houses for those who need them, but they are not free. Not only are there donors and volunteers, but the recipients are required to invest so much of their own labor into it, both on their own home, and in the past and/or future. So the recipients partially earn it.)

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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by Swyter »

Well. I do, I have like three or four patches waiting for review as we speak. I think I know what I'm talking about. There are some things that could be improved, and while the response times are leaps and bounds better than a year ago (thanks to someone's insistence on irc, poor ForeverWinter had an important patch lying around for more than year without even a simple reply) a prospective contributor still needs to do what I like to call patch-begging.
External patch contributor for ux/user-mode/l10n/winapi. Sometimes I fix a bit of everything everywhere.

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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by Swyter »

Also, to be a bit more constructive. I think the dev shortage has to do with the lack of additions to the team. As in any open source project people come and go, that's just normal, while here the bar is generally a big higher, specially if you go past user mode you can't argue that new blood is flowing at all. I believe the last addition of a coder was Gigahertz some years ago (and he is starting to commit less and less after his contract expired), and while the GonzoMD addition some months ago will be great to unclog user interface patches in the future there's just no renovation, no new developers which can take care of unattended areas where other people has been leaving.

I can think of very competent people that pop up from time to time with a killer feature. The most recent case was our friend Frontier, which, out of nowhere, started to work on the Shell as a brick-and-mortar patcher, you would think that given the lack of people with the general expertise in shell matters, and after the impressive patches adding things like *copying* functionality or *auto-refresh for new files* (that only today got committed) he would be given commit access and his own SVN branch. Nope, let's make him wait and let his patch bit rot for a few months instead.

ForeverWinter has been improving the userland applications that you all use for years, he makes excellent patches that almost don't need any kind of review. We could ask him after all those years of having him patiently wait for his work to be committed if he wanted to gain commit access. Nope, still the same.

And that's just some recent examples. I'm still relatively new here, but even I can see when there's a contribution problem and where there's a management problem. Draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by middings »

Speaking of 'management', the discussion has been off topic for a while. Discussion about the project's formal and informal release policies and releases deserves a topic of its own. Otherwise, in a few months nobody will be able to find this interesting discussion about releasing and testing.

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Re: Search in Shell!

Post by gonzoMD »

Hey Swyter. In some parts you are totally correct. It's a pity that many patches need ages until they will be reviewed. Fact is that everyone who proved that he writes good quality patches is able to request Commit access. So even Frontier and ForeverWinter would be able to because they've shown their quality. The biggest bottleneck is still, and it will ever be, the fact that we have no flowing development process. Wine has many full time devs (powered by Codeweavers) which are able to plan, process, test, and review but we are still a hobby project not more and not less.

I fully understand that you put a big amount of heartblood, sparetime and headache into your patches and you are a bit angry that some are still rotting. (the VBOX resize thing for example)
But I also understand some dev's opinion that your offensive manner moves any kind of motivation to /dev/NULL. I like your work and it would be sad if you would stop to offer patches, but maybe some chitchat in IRC even about non-ROS topics would lighten the mood. Maybe you will get also access someday, when you prove that you really want to be a teamplayer.
I don't want to personally attack you, just point to some things I noticed.

Thanks for every line of code. Keep up the great work!!!

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