Page 1 of 3

Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:33 am
by Pi_User5
A little while ago, I posted a screenshot of Windows 3.11 running in DOS Box over in Epic Win. It was discussed about running the setup in our NTDVM. I figured it would be better to start a new topic instead of cluttering up Epic Win.

Current Status:
Setup starts but is blocked by "Internal DOS List of lists (SYSVARS) is unimplemented". See https://jira.reactos.org/browse/CORE-9600

[ external image ]

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:36 am
by PurpleGurl
I guess my main question is what is the point? Why install Win 3.1, in NTVDM, in ROS, inside a VM? If the reason to do that had to do with using outdated peripherals, I think there is a better way. If driver compatibility is the problem, then maybe supporting a driver synthesizer project would be the way to go. So feed your 3.1 drivers into the software and have it build NT-compatible drivers, etc.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:04 am
by gonzoMD
PurpleGurl wrote:I guess my main question is what is the point? Why install Win 3.1, in NTVDM, in ROS, inside a VM? If the reason to do that had to do with using outdated peripherals, I think there is a better way. If driver compatibility is the problem, then maybe supporting a driver synthesizer project would be the way to go. So feed your 3.1 drivers into the software and have it build NT-compatible drivers, etc.
The point is that it is a good testcase for ntvdm

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:16 am
by EmuandCo
The point... well... it's the same point like the bootup of Linux in NTVDM. It's a proof of what can be done in it which Windows isn't able to. It shows the compatibility which can be achieved by really emulating all stuff of a 486 DOS machine. This enables not just some stupid DOS games to run, but any software made for DOS. Unlike DOSBox does, Alexander tries to achieve maximum compatibility in ntvdm and unlike Windows even under x64 systems.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:54 am
by Black_Fox
Pi_User5 wrote:I figured it would be better to start a new topic instead of cluttering up Epic Win.
I applaud that decision :-)
PurpleGurl wrote:I guess my main question is what is the point?
Sure, Win 3.11 working installation on ROS may seem a little useless now, but as Daniel says, it'll be a nice indication of progress. Also it's useful to support the list of lists feature since Win 3.11 isn't the only app using it.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:50 am
by ArmyMan007
I agree that showcasing Windows 3.11 in NTVDM would provide a viable and important proof of NTVDM's success. I guess that since Windows 3.11 requires a lot of functionality within the NTVDM spectrum, it could also help us tracking bugs and such.

At any rate, this is great news and I'm so looking forward to read more about it! :D

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:08 pm
by MugenFighter
Pi_User5 wrote:A little while ago, I posted a screenshot of Windows 3.11 running in DOS Box over in Epic Win. It was discussed about running the setup in our NTDVM. I figured it would be better to start a new topic instead of cluttering up Epic Win.

Current Status:
Setup starts but is blocked by "Internal DOS List of lists (SYSVARS) is unimplemented". See https://jira.reactos.org/browse/CORE-9600

[ external image ]
Didn't Microsoft design Windows 3.x to work only with MS-DOS? If so, would that be an issue here? I know that Windows 3 versions have trouble working with FreeDOS, but that is an actual Disk Operating System and this is not.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:07 pm
by erkinalp
The issue is we will now need to ask for administrative privileges because of the power of ReactOS-VDM.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:39 pm
by MugenFighter
I got Windows 2.01 to install on ReactOS, but since Windows 2.01 will only boot with a version of DOS no newer than MS-DOS 4.00 I can't get it to start up. However, a quick test with DOSBox showed that the installation worked. Is that any help at all?

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:51 pm
by EmuandCo
Do you need administrative privileges for DOSBox with Win3.1? Nope. So why should we need em? NTVDM claims to be DOS 5 right now. DOSBox ... No idea what it says it wanna be.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:58 pm
by DOSGuy
DOSBox reports 5.00 by default, but you can change it to whatever you want with "VER SET major_version [minor_version]".

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:25 am
by MugenFighter
MugenFighter wrote:I got Windows 2.01 to install on ReactOS, but since Windows 2.01 will only boot with a version of DOS no newer than MS-DOS 4.00 I can't get it to start up. However, a quick test with DOSBox showed that the installation worked. Is that any help at all?
Quick question after further thought. Does anyone know if you can change the DOS version for the NT Virtual DOS Machine?

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:32 am
by Pi_User5
Quick question after further thought. Does anyone know if you can change the DOS version for the NT Virtual DOS Machine?
I don't think so.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:59 am
by PurpleGurl
Another question. How exactly does putting all this work into a DOS console help ROS with its main goals? Yes, I see how it makes it run older software work, and makes ROS compatible with Windows 95/98/ME in that regard.

It is like a high school auto mechanics class. They were working on a hearse with a blown engine. The distributor had worked loose somehow and unsplined itself from the oil pump, but still managed to turn. So the oil pump was not working. So they were to tear down the engine, bore things out, sleeve it, put in new bearings, rings, etc. They were not asked to repair anything else. But a couple of the teens thought they'd examine why the passenger door window (electric) didn't work, and they got in over their head. And it got into taking time away from rebuilding the engine and acquiring parts to fix what they broke trying to fix it and to actually fix the window problem. The reason I told that story is to illustrate how getting distracted and doing more than one is asked to do can take away from the main task at hand. I see being able to run Windows programs reliably on real hardware to be the engine, and I see NTVDM sort of like the passenger door window. You can drive without being able to raise and lower the window, but you cannot drive without an engine.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to stop developing it. Lots of work has been put into it, so I wouldn't stop. And if/when you get to a 64-bit port, NTVDM will certainly be appreciated as the emulator approach is the only way to get 16-bit programs to working on 64-bit hardware.

Re: Windows 3.11 in NTVDM

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:50 am
by Black_Fox
TheFlash expressed his wish to work on it, that's probably the main reason it's being worked on. After it's done, he earlier said he plans to take a look at printing (and if it's possible for him, actually start working on it) - but NTVDM isn't done yet :-)