Blog: Moonshot Finale

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Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

Re-read what I said previously. People who might have the storage do not have the time, people who might have the time live nowhere close to the people who might have the storage space. As in on another continent.

As the projected market is small, I will not ask the project to commit the financial resources to perform a production run and then pay for the overhead of storage and shipping by a third party. The cost/benefit risk is simply not something the project would realistically consider, especially since it does not directly benefit improvement of the ReactOS code and is at best a peripheral PR move. If you somehow come up with at least 700 firm pre-orders, that's another matter entirely, but at this point nothing short of that is going to convince me and the other coordinators that pouring money into this is worth the effort.

middings
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by middings »

I've done the fulfillment service job for a very small organization's membership premium. Like Webunny, I thought it would be a simple task and would take only a few minutes to prepare and ship each premium. I was wrong. And I only shipped a book and only within the USA. The hassle is comparable to packing and shipping Christmas presents plus the extra burden of keeping records of expenses and proof of mailing (for transparency, you understand).

Getting back to the topic, I enjoyed Z98's 3-part Moonshot tale and its finale. Learning what the occasional references to 'bunnies' and 'hackbunnies' meant was a happy bonus. Now that the Moonshot series is over, I am stuck wondering what happens when the hackbunnies discover there is a black hole in the center of our Milky Way galaxy. ;)

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

They already know it's there. At this point they're assuming they'll be long dead before that becomes a problem and are leaving it to future generations to figure out, especially since it is their opinion that nothing current technology has available would be useful for dealing with the issue.

Webunny
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:Re-read what I said previously. People who might have the storage do not have the time, people who might have the time live nowhere close to the people who might have the storage space. As in on another continent.

As the projected market is small, I will not ask the project to commit the financial resources to perform a production run and then pay for the overhead of storage and shipping by a third party. The cost/benefit risk is simply not something the project would realistically consider, especially since it does not directly benefit improvement of the ReactOS code and is at best a peripheral PR move. If you somehow come up with at least 700 firm pre-orders, that's another matter entirely, but at this point nothing short of that is going to convince me and the other coordinators that pouring money into this is worth the effort.
No need to re-read it, I've understood completely. But I took the reasonable position that 'having no time' means spending hours on it each day. Which why I presumed large volumes, which you afterwards indicated is not the case. Hence my question whether half an hour a week is not possible for those people. Normally, if the wish is there, EVERYONE can make himself free for half an hour a week.

What you are now saying is, that they do not wish to spend half an hour on it, OR that the volumes of hackbunnies IS expected to be large volumes and thus would take a considerable amount of time. You can't have it both ways.

As middings said, there is some work involved, but with the system I describe, the 'actual work' you could tranfer to those that DO have more time to deal with it EVEN if it's on another continent, that's just the point. It's webbased. And I don't think so, I know so. The only incertainty in this respect, is if a similar service is possible in the country of (one of the two) people wanting to put some time in, and if that service works internationally, and if so, for how much.

One should check that out in the countries of the persons in question, and I have a feeling this particular research has not be done. Of course, it's true that, if the other persons can't spend even half an hour, it's no use debating it.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

Repeating myself again:

"As the projected market is small, I will not ask the project to commit the financial resources to perform a production run and then pay for the overhead of storage and shipping by a third party. The cost/benefit risk is simply not something the project would realistically consider, especially since it does not directly benefit improvement of the ReactOS code and is at best a peripheral PR move. If you somehow come up with at least 700 firm pre-orders, that's another matter entirely, but at this point nothing short of that is going to convince me and the other coordinators that pouring money into this is worth the effort."

Why you seem to feel an urgent need to push this is beyond me. We've said that it's not a priority and we're not going to put any effort into it right now, which you then seem to take as a personal challenge to try to get us to make it a priority.

karlexceed
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by karlexceed »

Just wanted to drop a quick note that I too enjoyed the Moonshot series. Is what has been posted the extent of what has been written? I would love to see where the story goes from here!

Webunny
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:Repeating myself again:

"As the projected market is small, I will not ask the project to commit the financial resources to perform a production run and then pay for the overhead of storage and shipping by a third party. The cost/benefit risk is simply not something the project would realistically consider, especially since it does not directly benefit improvement of the ReactOS code and is at best a peripheral PR move. If you somehow come up with at least 700 firm pre-orders, that's another matter entirely, but at this point nothing short of that is going to convince me and the other coordinators that pouring money into this is worth the effort."
?

Why are you acting as if I want to 'push' it, again? I thought it clear that the purpose of the debate about the use of mascots was to brainstorm and see if there is any possibility in doing so. You explicitly asked what use it would have, which I did, and then you indicated the logistic part was the real problem. Well, I'm exploring the possibilities of how to handle the logistics. Now, you seem to complain that I do exactly that. Ermm...wha? I'm not seeing your issue, here. You indicated what the logistic problems are for doing it, and I point out possibilities of how one might do it... and then you're irritated that I do so, and claim I'm being pushy. It makes lil sense. You did not indicated that you didn't want to do it - which would explain this reaction - but that it was the logistics that were the real hurdle. Well, wouldn't it be a good thing to explore various options to overcome the logistic difficulties, or at least manage them to an acceptable level, then?

I'm also not sure WHY you are repeating yourself with this. My whole last post had nothing to do with asking the project to commit any serious financial resources to it, so re-iterating this is completely irrelevant to it.


I was asking if those two people who had storage capacity wouldn't even be willing to spend about half an hour of time a week on it. This, because of the normal expectancy that, when people say they can't put time into something, it normally is dependent of how much time that will be. So while they are understandably not interested in spending hours per day on it, it might be they are still willing to put a trivial amount of time in it.

If the answer is 'no', just say so clearly. As said, there is no use in going with a wish-wash of not-relevant back-and-forths. Re-iterations are not fruitful in any brainstorming-session. It is possible that they do not want to spend even 1 minute to help out with this, but that's, ultimately, a wish one makes, not a 'can not'. As said, *everyone* can find a half hour time in a whole week.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to do it, however, so I'm not blaming anyone. It's just the line between 'can not' and 'don't feel like it' are constantly being interchanged around here, which make clarity of the actual problem less straightforward.

If no one of those people feel like doing it, one could mayhap ask community-members as a whole if someone has storage-place and is willing to put half an hour per week into it?
Last edited by Webunny on Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

@Webunny

Manpower is not the primary problem, it's just the one you decided to fixate on. Tying up potentially a thousand dollars in inventory that then costs more money to maintain and shift is a bigger problem. The project does not have so much money that I could in good conscience ask it to splurge on what is pretty much an indulgence.

@karlexceed

Significantly more has been written, whether any of it sees the light of day is another matter entirely. Might do a once per month thing if there's enough demand for it.

justincase
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by justincase »

Z98 wrote:Might do a once per month thing if there's enough demand for it.
I DEMAND IT!!!!! (jk :lol:)

I'd like to read more if you can find the time, but not if it'll significantly slow down other, more important things.
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Webunny
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:@Webunny

Manpower is not the primary problem, it's just the one you decided to fixate on. Tying up potentially a thousand dollars in inventory that then costs more money to maintain and shift is a bigger problem. The project does not have so much money that I could in good conscience ask it to splurge on what is pretty much an indulgence.

@karlexceed

Significantly more has been written, whether any of it sees the light of day is another matter entirely. Might do a once per month thing if there's enough demand for it.

Ermm..z98...it was the very first thing you said yourself: "As you have yet to demonstrate how the project is to find the manpower and time to generate the necessary media". I think it's a bit overboard to now claim I 'fixate' on manpower, when it's the very first thing you said about the logistic-problem. In fact, in your whole post where you start talking about logistics:

"You present arguments about how useful a mascot would be if actually employed. As you have yet to demonstrate how the project is to find the manpower and time to generate the necessary media, find the space for storage, and ultimately deal with the logistics of directly managing shipments and a store, what you have not done is demonstrate how the project would actually employ said mascot. If the project cannot employ the mascot in a meaningful way, then any of the advantages you keep bringing up might as well not exist since they are directly dependent on it."

You'll note that 'tying up 1000's of dollars in inventory' is never mentioned, there. I' ve tried to come up with alternatives and possibilities for the (lack of) manpower and time, and the managing of the shipping. I think it's a bit unwarranted, thus, not to say unreasonable, to now claim I 'decided' to fixate on those matters. I decided to deal with what you came up with first and most. Blame me.


As for tying up... I'm not sure what your perspective on it is, then. I mean, clearly, for a 1000 plushies, and with low 'absorbing' as you said, it should be long-term. As long as you're taking a long term approach on it, and as long as you sell each plushie with some profit, all what is 'tied up' in there, will come out too, and with added ROI. You act as if the money has been wasted and is gone, but it's still there, in the inventory when not sold, and in money when sold.

But, once again, I feel the reason you are so reluctant about it, is not because it has no use, not because of the logistics, etc. you came up with as of now, but simply because you don't feel like investing the money in it to take the long-term approach. I'm guessing you prefer the money one would spend on those plushies, to be spend on something else, more short-term. But that, as I said at the very beginning, is a subjective take. It deals with personal preferences, and I nor anyone else, can make something 'convincing enough' when one doesn't want to be convinced.

But on itself that has nothing to do with it not being useful, or it not being able to be done by lack of manpower or the other logistic problems you raised.

What you are now asking, is basically: "Tell me how we will get to buy and sell a thousand mascots without paying anything for it. Convince me." You're a pretty intelligent man, so I'm sure you see the infeasibility and outright unreasonableness of such a request. Any effort, request or endeavour requires realistic parameters, or else one is just being irrational.

So, yes, z98, you will need to pay for (making) the plushies. And yes, the money spend will be tied up in the storage. That goes without saying. It does not make it a splurge on an indulgence, but a long term investment, where the return is getting back your own money + a modest ROI, an augmented brand-recognition and the creation of an infrastructure you can build upon in the future. Of course, it can be you don't feel like investing that way. But say so then, and be conscious it's a subjective stance. There is nothing inherently making the project unworkable, as long as one can overcome your primary objections of manpower and all the rest. Not wanting to spend any money on something that costs money, is not part of those obstacles, it's a conscious wish (not) to do so, *regardless* of the actual obstacles being overcome or not. That's something else.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

You are the one that believes that the benefit is sufficient to justify the expenditure of resources. I am of the position that the return is not high enough to justify the expenditure of resources at this point. A proper long term investment at this point comes in the form of procuring equipment for the project or paying developers, not tying up a good chunk of money in a marketing gimmick, especially when there are much cheaper means of marketing which have faster returns on investment if the desire is to have physical goods. I literally cannot imagine terming a slow rundown of a 1000 unit bunny inventory as a "long term investment." That sounds more like willful mismanagement if you order so many units of an item without there being demand for them.

justincase
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Hackbunny Campaign? - Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by justincase »

Webunny: Z98 has told you what must happen for a full-size production run to occur.
Z98 wrote:If you somehow come up with at least 700 firm pre-orders, that's another matter entirely, but at this point nothing short of that is going to convince me and the other coordinators that pouring money into this is worth the effort.
If you really want it to happen, you need to get 700+ pre-orders. The most likely way I see of doing this is via one of those all(+) or nothing KickStarter or IndieGoGo campaigns.

So Z98, if there were somehow 700+ pre-orders, how much would each Hackbunny be? i.e. if a Kickstarter or IndieGoGo campaign were run, how high would the success/failure bar have to be set? understanding of course that such a campaign would have to be OK'd by the Project prior to it's creation.
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Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 »

Conservatively speaking, between $30-$50 each, not including shipping.

justincase
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by justincase »

Oh, that's not too bad.
If theCommunity Edition Campaign had had a Hackbunny reward that was $70, didn't include the flash drive, T-shirt, and name on the Credits section of the site, I would have gone for it, and that's before I knew what the Hackbunnies were.
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Webunny
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:You are the one that believes that the benefit is sufficient to justify the expenditure of resources. I am of the position that the return is not high enough to justify the expenditure of resources at this point. A proper long term investment at this point comes in the form of procuring equipment for the project or paying developers, not tying up a good chunk of money in a marketing gimmick, especially when there are much cheaper means of marketing which have faster returns on investment if the desire is to have physical goods. I literally cannot imagine terming a slow rundown of a 1000 unit bunny inventory as a "long term investment." That sounds more like willful mismanagement if you order so many units of an item without there being demand for them.
It's like saying: "what are the advantages of airplanes?", and then saying: "that might be, but we don't want to spend money on it nor take the risk of flying, and trains can get you to places as well."

I didn't say I believed anything, except that there might be ways around the problems of logistics, which you first described as being the main problem. Not wanting to spend money on it, or wanting to take any risk, is a completely seperate thing.


If this is an absolute stance, then it's no use debating it, since it are unrealistic demands and expectations. If it's a matter of degree, it depends on what one DOES want to invest in it, and HOW MUCH risk one wants to take. Again: those are subjective evaluations. Since nothing is for free and there is no such thing as a totally riskless endavour, it is presumed to be known what parameters are in effect. There is no way of convincing somebody who does not want to spend money or take risk, when it inherently will always need money and have a certain risk, but that doesn't mean it can't be done or there is no possibility of having a return long-term, which was what I was debating. What level one finds acceptable is like debating taste; it's useless since one can't really debate it in objective terms. You seem to indicate a pre-order of 700 pluchies would be acceptable for you (as risk), but it's obvious there aren't any real objective measurements for it: why not 800 or 600, for instance? Couldn't another dev/PR/person find 500 acceptable? etc.

If you set 700 pre-orders as a minimum, there is only one way - providing that you actually WANT to do it - and that's organising a potential pre-sale (like on steam for a game) and see how much you get for 40 bucks per plushie (Which is a lot cheaper than the ones on IGG, at least). Has there any market-research been done to gauge the interest for such a thing? If not, maybe one should try it first, before making any claims one way or another about it being 'possible' or not.

Again, this is not me being 'pushy', it's responding on your latest objection of having to take a risk and going for 700 plushies. s clear that, if you want to be able to say something sensible on that, you'd first need to gauge the interest there is for it, at that price, for that item. If that's not done, you can't make definite statements about it. (and even then you could take the risk to 500 or less pre-sale plushies, for instance, but that's a subjective decision).

Z98 wrote:Conservatively speaking, between $30-$50 each, not including shipping.
Thats actually quite reasonable. At the prices of the IGG it would be infeasable (and yes, I know that's due to the limited amount), but at $40 it would be quite sell-able.

It might be a good thing to have an idea of the price-development versus the amount of plushies being made?

How much would 100 cost?
200? 500?

It could be there is a price-point most people would still buy one, but the storage and logistics are starkly reduced.

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