About ReactOS 0.4

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by dizt3mp3r »

When ReactOS runs 'my' apps without crashing I will consider it usable.

Granted I run a fair suite of apps but there are a core of essentials that I would need in order for me to consider ReactOS usable.

On top of this requirement for a day-to-day stable o/s -

o I have considered using ReactOS as a host o/s for bundling with legacy apps that no longer work in Windows.
o I have considered using ReactOS as a sandbox to allow me to run 'dodgy' apps or perform 'dodgy' tasks so that only the guest o/s is damaged if the dodgy app turns out to be malicious. If so, I can simply rebuild the guest o/s.
o I have considered using ReactOS as a fast boot windows alternative o/s on legacy hardware just as I might install a slimline Linux like Slax, usable for kitchen-style apps, browsing for this 'n that, skype - nothing serious. A kitchen o/s for a kitchen laptop that my wife/kids can boot and use in seconds.

ReactOS starts to be usable to me when it meets any of these functions. When it then steps up to meet another of these requirements then I would use it more and more as it becomes usable for 'me'.

As long as the app functions and the o/s does not crash within the time I use it then I consider it usable, whether alpha or beta. Higher functionality will come as it comes and just makes it more usable.

Microsoft is beginning to abandon major releases and is beginning to make mini releases on a regular basis. I see ReactOS following that model - at the moment we have the daily build, perhaps in the future we will have the monthly release, each fixing more and more and becoming, hopefully more stable.
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Aeneas
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Aeneas »

Dear Black_Fox,

They use that as an all too convenient excuse. - Looking at it this way, why did the SCO story not damage Linux that much? And there was virtually no Linux market share in the early 2000s.

The BSD folks are just a) generally more competent and knowledgeable about Unix system details (more so than most Linux folks - sorry Linux guys) and b) due to this and following this, "elitist".

The effect was simple: people STARTING in that world first STARTED with Linux (it being more accessible), and when they became BETTER, they STAYED with Linux. That's how Linux accumulates expertise - at the expense of those "playing elitist".

(I remember, when I started 2004-2005, I found it "interesting" to configure my xorg.conf on BSD, but I also found it convenient to simply have a windowing environment "out of the box" in Linux. THAT ALONE will have cost them quite a few people. The show continued with automatic mounting and unmounting of USB mass storage media. Same with the lack of a decent binary update mechanism, etc. - Now it starts to bite them: Linux started to have the HAL daemon, and lots of stuff started to depend on it. Now they have systemd which makes things even worse from the perspective of the BSD guys. They can hardly advance in anything at all, but play catch-up to Linux all the time, even going so far as "Linux emulation layers". Otherwise they'll soon have no office suite and no decent browsers, and then they can wave bye-bye.)

The BSD folks are babbling about "superiority", but in reality, Linux, having an inclusive rather than an elitist culture, beat the sh*t out of BSD. - I think it is a nice example to learn from.

(And I am explicitly NOT counting OS X as a "BSD" - the Apple people got their market share because of the design and stance as a company. They had a decent market share also with Mac OS 9, and surely would have been successful even if they had picked BeOS as underlying system. Their success has nothing to do with "BSD's superiority", but with the ability to steer an IT company.)



Dear dizt3mper,

Great ideas, actually. In particular: SIMPLE ideas. Whether the devs like them or not, Wernher von Braun did not straight begin with the Saturn V, either. But one thing remains: to talk about "continuing development", you need a "starting point". I.e. a point where you say, "that works - now let's continuously update and upgrade it". I'm waiting for that moment.

middings
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by middings »

Let's get back to this thread's topic.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Which is? according to the subject it is about ReactOS 0.4. Sounds all encompassing to me.
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by middings »

I liked the post that began
dizt3mp3r wrote:When ReactOS runs 'my' apps without crashing I will consider it usable.
The stories from others about BSD and Linux are entertaining but they are not about ReactOS 0.4.

The opinions about the ReactOS Project's management and methods are better placed in topics of their own, I believe. I think some of those posts come close to hijacking the topic.

I have been reading this topic with interest. Indulging in wishful thinking from time to time is fun and wishful thinking about the future of ReactOS demonstrates interest in the project. However, I must avoid the temptation to daydream about work for other people to do.

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Aeneas wrote:, Wernher von Braun did not straight begin with the Saturn V, either. But one thing remains: to talk about "continuing development", you need a "starting point". I.e. a point where you say, "that works - now let's continuously update and upgrade it". I'm waiting for that moment.
Well, I'd say the fuse has been lit on a few small scale rockets already. As you are aware, in reality the majority of those rockets went BANG on the launchpad. ReactOS is building the piping, the valves, the cooling, the inter-mix chambers, even researching the correct alloys to do the job whilst inventing the tools to manipulate it all too. It is a ground-up approach and if the team is building a rocket then it is still building the first stage. You can't expect it to get to the moon.

If it gets off the launchpad and into the air and flies it will be a worthy feat in itself.
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danunder
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by danunder »

Z98 wrote:If you want to make it "easier" for people to report bugs, go right ahead and open up a thread and then take the posts there and turn them into Jira reports
Did you even read what I said? One of my major points is that the jira system is overly cumbersome (Actually the whole methodology of the project is extremely inefficient). If you're going to try and "refute" someones point, maybe you should take the time to actually understand the point they are making instead of reflexively regurgitating your fixed standpoint. When you mistake constructive criticism for a personal attack, and react as such, you have made growth and development impossible. Without that, you stagnate. Without it, the project stagnates (just like it has been doing for years).

Your response proves the point I made about the attitude of the people running the project: "Our way or the highway, but give us money and go out of your way to help us and maybe we'll consider your proposals. Maybe." That attitude is the root cause of the point Aleksey Bragin made in the September meeting: "User unfriendly". Its not the CSS thats the problem, it is the culture of the "inner circle".

I stand by my earlier estimate of at least 3 years before 0.4 is released (still think thats unlikely). Check the math yourself, look at the number of bugs, how many are solved every month and how many new ones are found. How many subsections of the code are complete, how long did they take to write and how many remain to be done. Those two metrics should give a rough estimate of how long the project is going to take. Obviously there will be some variation, but I'll bet those figures don't paint a pretty picture hence the hedging on how long its going to take. I know publicly stating something like "At this rate we'll be ready in 10-12 years" sounds like it might scare of large investors, but you're insulting their intelligence and deluding yourself if you think they can't work that out for themselves.

This project needs an overhaul if it is to live up to its promise and that needs to start with an attitude adjustment.

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Black_Fox
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Black_Fox »

danunder wrote:One of my major points is that the jira system is overly cumbersome
I think it's really different whether you report bugs in your favourite game or your favourite hobby OS. I play Planetbase these days (love it, it's tough) and a considerable part of people on the forums sometimes can't describe a bug properly, with approximately following terms:
- look for duplicates
- include your game version
- describe the issue in a human way
- if you have a save, include it
That's a game where you can perfectly describe your issue: "Hey, I'm constructing two buildings at the same time and the resources are split, starving both constructions for metal, that's wrong"
But still, there are tons of bugreports (on a phpBB form similar to this one) that have little value.

Why am I talking about bugreporting for a game? Because there is no such thing as an "easy" bugreport on ReactOS. Do you think there is any way someone can describe a bug in ReactOS in a human way while being able to not get into technical details? "My favourite app doesn't work" - "what happens?" - "it bluescreens *provides not much useful data taken from the BSOD*"... People have to be able to produce debuglog, otherwise many of the bugreports regarding code are not really resolvable.

We use JIRA at work and people have no problem working with it, including non-technical managers; almost the only difference to ROS' JIRA is in applied skin. Just saying.

My point is, there are tons of JIRA fields that the logger doesn't have to fill. They still need to give devs the debuglog, though (or the app version and steps for reproduction, so somebody more skilled can provide the logs instead). Do you have any idea on what to change? For example, could the novice users have the JIRA issue report limited in field selection to "Title", "Description", "Environment" and "Attach files/screenshots"? Or how about having a helpful template text prepared for the user in the "Description" field when entering a new bug? Any other suggestions you (all) can add?
danunder wrote:(Actually the whole methodology of the project is extremely inefficient)
I don't know if it is or isn't. What leads you to that thought?

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EmuandCo
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by EmuandCo »

danunder wrote: Did you even read what I said? One of my major points is that the jira system is overly cumbersome (Actually the whole methodology of the project is extremely inefficient). If you're going to try and "refute" someones point, maybe you should take the time to actually understand the point they are making instead of reflexively regurgitating your fixed standpoint. When you mistake constructive criticism for a personal attack, and react as such, you have made growth and development impossible. Without that, you stagnate. Without it, the project stagnates (just like it has been doing for years).

Your response proves the point I made about the attitude of the people running the project: "Our way or the highway, but give us money and go out of your way to help us and maybe we'll consider your proposals. Maybe." That attitude is the root cause of the point Aleksey Bragin made in the September meeting: "User unfriendly". Its not the CSS thats the problem, it is the culture of the "inner circle".

I stand by my earlier estimate of at least 3 years before 0.4 is released (still think thats unlikely). Check the math yourself, look at the number of bugs, how many are solved every month and how many new ones are found. How many subsections of the code are complete, how long did they take to write and how many remain to be done. Those two metrics should give a rough estimate of how long the project is going to take. Obviously there will be some variation, but I'll bet those figures don't paint a pretty picture hence the hedging on how long its going to take. I know publicly stating something like "At this rate we'll be ready in 10-12 years" sounds like it might scare of large investors, but you're insulting their intelligence and deluding yourself if you think they can't work that out for themselves.

This project needs an overhaul if it is to live up to its promise and that needs to start with an attitude adjustment.
"Excuuuuuse me, Princess!"

Well, it's rather funny that many smaller and even bigger projects work very well with Jira or Bugzilla. Jira is even way more advanced in user friedliness btw. Many ppl send reports and many of them are even useful. What do you suggest instead? We need a advanced bug reporting system with attachment support, different resolve statui, modules, assigning features to give ppl some reports to work on, versioning system etcetc. You seem to have a good solution for us, so tell us about it please.

Oh, we are stagnating? Interesting standpoint. What are your imagined signs of this? Support for EFI being worked on? EXT2/3/4 driver support? Powerful https/SSL stack inclusion? New shell? First working GFX drivers? MS Office support progressing well? Basic themeing support? Many overhauled user mode applications? NTVDM? Or something I forgot of the big signs of stagnation recently? Tell us please about your signs for that.

Our inner circle annoys you? Well... Aleksey Bragin did a perfect job propagating the project everywhere. Russian government, his hometown university, mass media, so would you please abstain from tell us he is useless? This is a personal attack "like" the one you were so annoyed of by Z98, btw...

3 years? OK, this bet... you will lose it. Of course we have maaany reports showing up daily, did you ever check the size of this project? This is no stupid Linux kernel or games gased on the Q3 engine or stuff, this is a operating system based on a closed source architecture. If you still think we are not progressing fast enough, feel free to help us by posting reports like many others did and still do and have no problem with Jira so called being cumbersome.

If you are just here to lament about personal problems and attacking other moderators, you should better leave. Next time I won't be that friendly anymore, my friend...
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Smiley
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Smiley »

EmuandCo wrote: "Excuuuuuse me, Princess!"
I don't like the ad-hominem but everything else is right. Jira can't be simple because it needs to contain so many bugs. Many projects use it without any problem. I am member of the 1 man team responsible of the shell and I need to keep track of the list of the shell bugs (currently they are 173).

Don't be afraid to use jira and make mistakes, come and say what you have to say. Don't be insulted if it is a duplicate, or we correct one or two things or If we ask for more help from you in the form of ways to reproduce problems etc. We need your help and we appriciate it. Also keep in mind that without the help of more people we won't be able to proceed faster. Bug reports can get old and negleted by devs easily because we can't keep up.

justincase
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by justincase »

You know, the main difference between creating an Issue on JIRA and creating a thread on the forums, is that JIRA asks you for the information that helps the devs understand what's going on, whereas the forum doesn't. The only thing this really changes though, is that JIRA reports can get moving much quicker than forum threads, as more people who've posted to JIRA will have supplied the information that if they've posted on the forums, must usually be requested.

If you find that JIRA looks too daunting for you, check out oldman's "layman's guide" page on the wiki. It has a pretty good section on "How to create a Jira Issue for your bug", as well as sections on how to get the publicly available ISO files, capture debug logs, do regression testing, and even how to compile it for yourself if you want to.

Hope this helps you get over your JIRA issues. (pun intended ;))
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Z98
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Z98 »

There is a somewhat irritating misconception regarding ReactOS, one that the project does not do a good enough job making clear. At this stage of development, ReactOS does not have users in the conventional sense. Its 'userbase' is composed of three types, developers, translators, and testers. There is however no one that actually seeks to 'use' ReactOS to do day-to-day computing as a matter of routine. As such any complaints that ReactOS is not sufficiently welcoming to new 'users' is abjectly missing the point. We have no users. ReactOS is not ready for anyone to attempt to be a user, the default assumption is still in the vein of "it probably won't work" than "oh, hey it broke, that's odd." It's why when things do work people stick them in the epic win thread, the existence of that thread is a mark of ReactOS' relative incompleteness. Until we get past that stage, there is no point in trying to attract 'users' since we cannot fulfill their basic needs. And if we cannot fulfill their basic needs, we are doing them a disservice in trying to attract them in the first place.

Aeneas
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Aeneas »

Also keep in mind that without the help of more people we won't be able to proceed faster.
That, I think, is quite the core of the problem: no great diligence and exceptional devotion of the few can make up for the lack of involvement of the many.
At this stage of development, ReactOS does not have users in the conventional sense. Its 'userbase' is composed of three types, developers, translators, and testers. There is however no one that actually seeks to 'use' ReactOS to do day-to-day computing as a matter of routine. As such any complaints that ReactOS is not sufficiently welcoming to new 'users' is abjectly missing the point. We have no users.

It cannot entirely be declined, of course, that this is less of a "justification" as a "description of the very problem". ;) "No users" is not too far from "we are useless", an unfair yet not implausible qualification. - I believe the skepsis is simply coming from this: there have been projects in the past where a SMALL team has had HIGH goals, even sometimes collected MONEY from the public, and then went NOWHERE - most notably, SkyOS. A look at its forums show how delusional the entire SkyOS thing was up until the very end. I could name others: FreeVMS, Yabasic 3, etc. Even the once-famous Haiku appears in a terrible shape. - Now, ReactOS on the one hand makes public appearances, generates publicity, collects money from lots of people, etc. - but then does not make regular releases and, one may say, "hides behind the alpha excuse". What do you expect the Russian parliament to do? "We have a too high dependency on US-software, looking at what they did with Iran's centrifuges shows we have a real security issue here, so we need a new OS. How about the OS that has high aims but does not release in a year?" - sounds unlikely to me. See, the thing is this: the project had newsletters, meeting minutes, and regular releases. All three areas are a little out of shape. That does NOT in any way "PROVE a lack of development", but it DOES quite certainly INDICATE so, at least to any OUTSIDER. The outsiders are NEEDED. I wish ReactOS to succeed like Linux, not to end up like GNU Hurd! Otherwise, you get articles like this one:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2847723/ ... risis.html

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EmuandCo
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by EmuandCo »

Well, what's your problem with the meeting minutes? I see all of em there. The rest is worth a discussion of course, but keep in mind that we don't make a new OS in theory. We make a OS which has to behave like a well known closed source OS but with our own open source code. That's no "just lets write a memory manager and all is fine". We have to follow the exisiting architecture as close as possible to get apps working on it and this is a hell of a task. Sure we have no users yet, but this does not mean it's useless. Side projects like documentation are very common already and are heavily used worldwide. Normal retail end users have other needs and these needs are the ones which take way longer to accomplish. Open MS Office 2XXX and work with it, play music, videos, games etc, print stuff, web browsing, maybe participate to a domain. See the difference? Retail users are not made happy until EVERYTHING in ROS works stable. We need a rock solid MM/CC, IFS drivers, printing stack, DirectX with all features, sound stack, networking, SMB support and waaaay more. All stable of course. Some of the mentioned ones are already there, but still a bit rough. Anyways, this is nothing for retail users and it won't be for the next few years. PPL have three ways here, accept it and wait/follow the updates, participate by coding/testing OR... leaving. Theres no other way. If we have to get all devs to write Blog posts, meeting minutes (I do these of course, but only because my coding skills are limited) and fight with releases every second month things won't become faster too, more the opposite case. All devs here do the work in their spare time, the time normal users would sit @ home on their couch and watchin tv. Some devs do it to cool down from all day long kernel coding @ work by making new and updated user mode apps. Some have no job and still work on ROS for free. We have NO, NOT EVEN one fully paid dev right now. This will change soon, but not yet. So, this is it for now.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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Konata
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Re: About ReactOS 0.4

Post by Konata »

I don't think blog posts and such things are necessary, that's just hype and anyone with common sense knows that. As long as ReactOS is actively maintained - which it is - it's fine. You people gotta stop being so impatient. Why not go get a release from about a decade ago and see how far ReactOS has gotten? I've done that myself, and I can tell you the progress that has been had from then to now is not minimal. In fact, ReactOS' current state is actually extremely impressive in comparison to the older releases.

Here, try one for yourself: [link]

My particular favorite is 0.2.0, that was the first release to have Explorer. It doesn't work very well, to say the least. Of course you can always check out the Versions page on the wiki to see which version has what. And, I know, 0.2.0 was a whole decade ago. But the thing about software development is, it's more of a snowball effect than a straight line. As more components are finished, more things will work, and it'll be easier to add even more components. For instance, the "Epic Win" thread has been getting more activity than ever.

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