Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

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Webunny
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:Don't build up 0.4 too much in your mind. It will be a huge improvement over 0.3.0, but it won't be a huge change from 0.3.16 and the latest daily builds. As with every previous release, it will be incrementally better than the last one. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. 0.4 is just another step but, when added to all of the previous steps, it must be at least a couple hundred miles by now.
Hmm. That said, there should be a qualitative difference (and thus considerable noticeable amelioration) for the 0.4. Otherwise, there is no use in calling it 0.4, and instead one should go for 0.3.17. with giving it a major number one IS creating some expectations, after all. If it's just an incremental evolution, not bigger than, say, from 0.3.15 to 0.3.16, then one is, in fact, misleading the public a bit.

And as far as I've seen, the devs ARE trying to get that qualitative distinctive surplus in there. For instance, USB should work - contrary to 0.3.16. The new explorer should be in there too, also contrary to 0.3.16, etc.

DOSGuy
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by DOSGuy »

It doesn't have to be a huge improvement over 0.3.16 to deserve to be called 0.4, it only has to be good enough to be reasonably considered 0.4. Many people were of the opinion that 0.3.16 deserved to be called 0.4, based on progress since 0.3.0, overall functionality, completeness, and progress to 1.0. Version numbers are arbitrary and they can call it whatever they want. The devs have decided to call the next release 0.4, which is fine and dandy by me, and arguably overdue. But let's not get into that debate again. Regardless of everyone's personal philosophy on what version 0.4 ought to be, if you want to know what 0.4 is going to be, download the latest build and imagine it with explorer_new replacing explorer, and that's probably what you're going to get. It's likely that the efforts to get the Community Edition apps working will lead to general improvements for other things, but what we already have in the latest commit is a good indication of what to expect in the next release. The devs are awesome, dedicated, probably virile people who sweat in binary and dream in code, but they're not miracle workers! Let them do what they do and be patient. ROS will get where we all want it to be eventually, but a lot of what we want isn't going to be ready for 0.4, or it wouldn't be 0.4, it would be 1.0.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

Webunny
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:It doesn't have to be a huge improvement over 0.3.16 to deserve to be called 0.4, it only has to be good enough to be reasonably considered 0.4. Many people were of the opinion that 0.3.16 deserved to be called 0.4, based on progress since 0.3.0, overall functionality, completeness, and progress to 1.0. Version numbers are arbitrary and they can call it whatever they want. The devs have decided to call the next release 0.4, which is fine and dandy by me, and arguably overdue. But let's not get into that debate again. Regardless of everyone's personal philosophy on what version 0.4 ought to be, if you want to know what 0.4 is going to be, download the latest build and imagine it with explorer_new replacing explorer, and that's probably what you're going to get. It's likely that the efforts to get the Community Edition apps working will lead to general improvements for other things, but what we already have in the latest commit is a good indication of what to expect in the next release. The devs are awesome, dedicated, probably virile people who sweat in binary and dream in code, but they're not miracle workers! Let them do what they do and be patient. ROS will get where we all want it to be eventually, but a lot of what we want isn't going to be ready for 0.4, or it wouldn't be 0.4, it would be 1.0.
Virile, are they? :shock: I hope that will not cause some sticky problems! :D

I largely agree with what you say... however, the crux of the problem is already mentioned in the first sentence: "It doesn't have to be a huge improvement". But what is huge for one, is minute for the other, and that is the cause for the debates you refer to. And it always will be, since denominators as 'huge' and 'reasonable' are subjective and arbitrary. I can fully agree with your stance, and yet have another perception of what constitutes 'huge', for instance.

Same with 'reasonable', though the fact that there should be some discerning qualitative difference between 0.3.16 and 0.4 rather DOES seem to be reasonable on itself. There is no sense in calling it 0.4 (aka, a new major number) when it hardly differs with 0.3.16. I mean, sure, one CAN do that. Technically speaking, one can do anything, even call it 1.0. But that's not the point. One is well aware - as are you and I - that giving a new major number-version to a prog at the very least *implies* that there is some considerable change (improvements) in regard to the preceding one. Whether this has to be 'huge' is another matter and can hardly be established, since that term is not defined, but it sure is creating the expectation that there has been some improvements in key area's.

Z98
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Z98 »

A bump from 0.3.16 to 0.4.0 constitutes a minor version bump.

Webunny
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:A bump from 0.3.16 to 0.4.0 constitutes a minor version bump.
Indeed. You're only skipping 0.3.17, 0.3.18, etc. ;)

These are the major version bumps: 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5, etc.. These numbers have, on themselves (in a semantic context), more weight then sub-numbered ones. That's common knowledge and practise. Also with ROS, as one can see on the page with the future roadmap. One mentions 0.4 and 0.5. You don't see 0.3.18, 0.4.06 or 0.5.01 mentioned there. The reason is simple: semantically/psychologically major numbers imply some 'breakthrough' and are generally and universally regarded as major points of reference and 'milestones'.

These are the minor version-numbers: 0.1.01, 0.1.02, etc. These imply small incremental improvements in regard to the preceding. Sure, there are de facto exceptions, ofcourse. You always have. Nothing is set in stone, and as I agreed with DOSguy: on itself, a dev may give his prog a version-number the hell he likes. Google, for instance, often keeps his 'beta' status near eternally. But that does not change the fact the general rule/perception is there. If it wouldn't, then nothing would keep devs from creating an alpha 0.0.1 and yet calling it 1.0. You'll note, however, that *the vast majority* of devs worldwide, do not do that.

That's why, even if it would be from 0.3.99 to 0.4, it still would be implied some qualitative difference is there.


But, rest assured, I'm not complaining. Seen the fact of the usb support and the new explorer, I think it's warranted that it goes to 0.4.

Z98
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Z98 »

Whatever gave you the impression that in a numbering scheme such as x.y.z, the y value is treated as a major number?

fred02
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by fred02 »

Please, please, :arrow:
DOSGuy wrote:let's not get into that debate again.

ReactFan
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by ReactFan »

Numbering happens to be the least important, the important thing is at what time it is possible to transition to the new official release. Whether or not it would be to focus on the full USB support and focus to work on it? because at this point I don't see any progress in this matter. Explorer-New a lot has been done, but not enough to release to the new release 0.4. Are the goals but there is no time frame many bugs that are assigned to this issue has not been fixed, also rather this year for a breakthrough would not count and version 0.4 for me such a breakthrough announced, but hope the mother of stupid.

Reeboot
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Reeboot »

Perhaps then the solution would be to use an alternative shell?

Whilst I appreciate this system want's to utilise a lot of the Windows binary's and be cross compatible, it doesnt have to follow internet explorer's example.

Case in point: Windows 3.1 was actually FREE until wierd things started happening to ADVAPI.dll and suddenly it cost $195.00 and came included with NSA_Key.dll

If you search around, did you know you can still download the original un-tampered with Windows 3.1 (NT) Edition? It ran the Mosaic Browser which was also Gopher protocol friendly and when it upgraded to 95 it looked very much like they suddenly pinched the Calmira-II interface and smoothed it all out with RegEx, ActiveX and a disgusting abundance of JAVA. :lol:

As to another post I was reading elsewhere on the forum about Compiler error's in PSEH, no surprises there...

Examples: http://ldex.terica.net/ <-- Good looking Shell..

The original Win 3.1 (16bit) Calmira
[ external image ]

My goodness it sure looks familiar!

It would be nice if ReactOS was ported to FREEDOS and then worked around keeping it free.. No weird API/PKI libs encoded into the display manager!

If it cant display it on standard VGA/SVGA then it's obviously evil! Evil Microsoft can shove that Direct-X up there bum, I think the Unix haters handbook sumed it all up best when it broached the subject of X11 "What kind of wierd network protocol want's to use strange hexadecimal digit's encoded onto your display!" sadly in the wake of all that spying news, we now know the answer... Oh so that's why that Linux terminal has 7 serial lines attached to the display! Insane filing system (Linux) vs Sane distributed filing system (9vx)! (sigh) so much for putting the original Unix flame wars to rest! This is what happens when people are allowed to run rampent stealing idea's off each other - they end up with Linux powered by JAVA with its own API/PKI libs and not a shred of SSL in sight - powered by almighty Google! But it doesnt tackle the original problem, that they where allowed to put there sticky fingers on it - to begin with! Oh and to make it better it's only afterwards that the privacy issue and security issue become's relevant!

Z98
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Z98 »

That, was complete and utter gibberish.

Reeboot
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Reeboot »

Z98 wrote:That, was complete and utter gibberish.
Really, so you dont think Google spies on you via you're Android Device or has Deep CIA connections?

Unlock you're Android Device - load the XPosed Framework then you tell me why you're device is busy accessing you're contacts list, you're offline emails, you're storage media and best of all it can switch on the camera and turn on the microphone! Javascript has always been nothing but pure EVIL! Sorry for the rant but I guess it's one of those bugs that irritates the hell out of me! :D

BTW: Did you look up the Mosaic Browser or the Gopher protocol? If you did you'd find it illuminating that PRISM is actually the word used to describe most major browser vendors: Internet Explorer, Opera, Firefox, Safari, etc, etc, etc.. Those would be the vendors that hand you SSL certificates with your installation of the browser of you're choice!
Last edited by Reeboot on Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by PurpleGurl »

Z98 wrote:That, was complete and utter gibberish.
LOL! Indeed. Windows has never been free except for a few evaluation releases which were usually time-limited. Likewise 3.1 was not in the NT family. It was a shell that sat on top of MS DOS. Windows 9x made things more integrated, but it was still sitting on DOS. Even ME sat on top of DOS, just that it hid that fact much better (and made command line apps and debugging harder to do, though someone discovered a workaround of using some boot switches and an alternative command interpreter, and using the autoexec file to load Windows).

And "evil" is subjective, but I don't think any video card or drivers can be evil. Some might be buggy, but that is a different matter. I remember when people avoided ATI cards. The hardware was good but the drivers were highly incompatible with many machines. That got so bad they fired their driver developers and hired fresh, and then shortly after that, AMD acquired them.

And a lot of the NSA/CIA talk is paranoia. Yes, I am sure there is some risk there, but most average people won't encounter it or notice it. That is an advantage with open source software, since the public can audit it.

Reeboot
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Reeboot »

PurpleGurl wrote:
Z98 wrote:That, was complete and utter gibberish.
LOL! Indeed. Windows has never been free except for a few evaluation releases which were usually time-limited. Likewise 3.1 was not in the NT family. It was a shell that sat on top of MS DOS. Windows 9x made things more integrated, but it was still sitting on DOS. Even ME sat on top of DOS, just that it hid that fact much better (and made command line apps and debugging harder to do, though someone discovered a workaround of using some boot switches and an alternative command interpreter, and using the autoexec file to load Windows).

And "evil" is subjective, but I don't think any video card or drivers can be evil. Some might be buggy, but that is a different matter. I remember when people avoided ATI cards. The hardware was good but the drivers were highly incompatible with many machines. That got so bad they fired their driver developers and hired fresh, and then shortly after that, AMD acquired them.

And a lot of the NSA/CIA talk is paranoia. Yes, I am sure there is some risk there, but most average people won't encounter it or notice it. That is an advantage with open source software, since the public can audit it.
That's true it's free to audit, which is why I dont use either Linux or Windows... I've gone with just a single terminal, over-kill maybe, but it'll do the Job!

An speaking of AMD - INTEL aquired AMD before they manufactured the Bulldozer Chip's, then AMD aquired the AVP & AVP2 instruction cycles into there CPU, and lets not forget that INTEL manufactures some fantastic CPU's, like the Celeron Brand with no Random Number Generator or any kind of buffer overflow or under-run protection. AMD must be chuffed! ;)

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Konata
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Konata »

Reeboot, as someone who deals with schizophrenia and delusions I have to say you should really step back from the situation and look at things from an objective view rather than what you claim to be rational.

Reeboot
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Re: Have you any persistent bug(s) that irritate you?

Post by Reeboot »

Kontana - Gee thanks for that astute observation, but I think I know more about what I'm talking about than you do, because I've been reading it all very carefully - every single document, oh and if you're flavor of OS is linux then perhaps you can elaborate on why you're chosen filing system would have a lost & found folder and require swap-space? I guess your RAM filing system must be skipping out on it's Job! I'll stick to looking at the memory dumps and enjoy a sane filing system, that doesnt need a lost & found folder oh and i'll do it whilst running the SFS - Secure file system deamon and tell it to get it's random pool from the on demand embedded AES-128 bit chip!

Root user or elvated privledges .a Unique Unix Concept. Nah we'll do away with those altogether! No password, no way in!

That's how a sane, secure filing system - is supposed to work in the first place!

Not to mention that nearly every Device in the world is now running SELinux enhancements as endorsed by the NSA

http://i.imgur.com/bWkOksa.jpg

And my only responce to that idea is...

http://i.imgur.com/XZ0VyKo.gif

:idea: Why not try out how you're multi-tasking Linux platform really performs under the strain of Seven users accessing all Seven Teletype interface's at the same time and have them all perform intensive task's such as play MP3 files, stream video's and download music, then you'll soon get to the truth of just how multi-tasking you're choice of programming OS really is! It collapses under it's own weight!

No disrespect to everybody else's opinion after all there all entitled to one - but the 20 year old something kid runs off to Russia screaming you should all use Linux and TOR when in point of fact UNIX as it stands was thrown out by it's original developers in 1970 over 45 years ago as a failure and then replaced with something that actually work's better than anything else and now those guys all work for Google!

Everybody that already had Unix including the Government and DARPA sat there saying "No, it's wonderful, it work's why replace it with anything else?"

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html <~ Good reading material

Hence why the system that actually work's is a little sparce of applications, because nobody developed anything for it for over 45 years and instead they took the broken one and put it everywhere, high-street banks, retailers and government departments everywhere including those of the NSA run Windows 7 exclusively - EPIC FAIL! What really gets the NSA's Rub is the way the 9 file system interacts with it's users - file sharing in complete anonimity, totally rock solid - it wont fall over and after spending years figuring out how to back-door unix that they dont like at all! That gets a thumbs up from me!

You think there reaction was bad when they heard about Debian & TOR - Wait till they figure out what a 9 System can do! :lol:
Last edited by Reeboot on Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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