ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

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perseus
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ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by perseus »

I found this article on Silicon India News (http://www.siliconindia.com/news/enterp ... cid-7.html). The article discusses
8 Best Alternative Operating Systems You Can Install
and ROS was the second operating system mentioned in the list.

It is encouraging to see ROS discussed on the web in this manner and it reminds us of the great potential hidden in this promising gem of an operating system.

PurpleGurl
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by PurpleGurl »

It being listed second in no way diminishes the mention since they were not ranking them. I only wish it was not written in Indian English. That dialect sounds like International English from 50 years ago with broken syntax. But this article isn't too bad and is understandable enough.

I like this quote:
"This OS is in hopes of replacing Windows, and may very well be the next big OS that people use."

Webunny
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by Webunny »

perseus wrote:I found this article on Silicon India News (http://www.siliconindia.com/news/enterp ... cid-7.html). The article discusses
8 Best Alternative Operating Systems You Can Install
and ROS was the second operating system mentioned in the list.

It is encouraging to see ROS discussed on the web in this manner and it reminds us of the great potential hidden in this promising gem of an operating system.
KolibriOS seems interesting too.

And they got into google's2014 'summer of code'. -_-

vicmarcal
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by vicmarcal »

Well, being or not in GSOC is just a Google decision.
In the meeting after the rejection, the Google Team explains which are the reasons behind not letting you go into(you missed this or that), however basically they told us "You did a great job, all is perfect, but because other reasons we can't accept you this year".
On the other hand, seems we are able to fundraise instead requesting Google. It's just a matter of work.

Webunny
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by Webunny »

vicmarcal wrote:Well, being or not in GSOC is just a Google decision.
In the meeting after the rejection, the Google Team explains which are the reasons behind not letting you go into(you missed this or that), however basically they told us "You did a great job, all is perfect, but because other reasons we can't accept you this year".
On the other hand, seems we are able to fundraise instead requesting Google. It's just a matter of work.
Yes, I know, I checked the comments afterwards. Guess it can't be helped, but it just makes you wonder why/on what basis they decide such things. I mean, as said, Kolibrios did get it, and it's also an alternative OS. It's of little help if you want to know the reasons and they just tell you everything was great but there are other reasons. Well, what are those other reasons, then?

Fundraising is all fine and good, and while I would describe IGG as reasonably successful, we did not reach our goal. More importantly, the one does not exclude the other, so it is and remains a huge boon if we would get a GSOC in addition to a good fundraising.

Which reminds me. Didn't we, at one time, go for some prize-money with some German(?) bank neither? For 10000 euro's, or something. How did that end, can't remember.

Which, in turn, reminds me again for something else: I've been asking this before, but I never got a clear answer on it: could one please start with some more transparency and openness in regard to the financial dealings of ROS (Foundation)? As a non-profit one is supposed to have an open bookkeeping, at least in my country, but even if not obliged in Germany, it still would be a sign of 'good practise' where a non-profit shows it's supporters what, where and how they 'do things' (incomes, expenditures, etc.). It doesn't have to be *extremely* detailed, but some insight would be welcomed. We always ask transparency of our politicians and other organisations (especially non-profit ones), so why shouldn't ROS take that as an example?

For instance, not long ago, I received a financial statement of another non-profit, The Planetary Society. Have a look here:


Open & transparent bookkeeping of the TPS


That's only the proper thing to do, imho, for any non-profit to show their backers where it's spending it's (basically, those same backers') money on. It's not only an inherent courtesy, it also shows the open and transparent mindset of the organisation itself.
Last edited by Webunny on Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

PurpleGurl
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by PurpleGurl »

Using funds that we raise, it seems we could do something similar to "summer of code" (though preferably under another name), but specifically for us.

GSOC is not the only internship promotion program out there. There is also one that is specifically for girls/women. Personally, I think some lady coders could help the community culture around here. It has gotten much better over the years, and the interactions in the boards are less critical and snippy. I guess the credit goes to the leadership as well as those who decided to be a part of the solution. I applaud that. Moving on, being accepted to be a part of a female coding event could generate code and revenue. The key is finding what sponsors exist, and if we can comfortably fit within their agendas. If, for instance, some group wanted to pay companies and non-profits to get LGBT people more coding experience, I wouldn't care (despite my personal views) since people would be coding and helping us.

Speaking of our goals. Considering how GSOC works the last time I read on their site, where half of their spending goes to the organization, and half to the intern coders, lets look in terms of the last fundraiser. That would be enough to fund 24 people to help us for the same length of time and terms as GSOC. I am not suggesting anything, just throwing that up for comparison sake (unless my understanding of the math is off).

And I like the idea behind Kolibrios. It doesn't do much and doesn't have library dependencies and all of that, but it is very efficient. I know I've been shot down repeatedly, but once our project reaches a somewhat finalized state, I'd like to see a fine-tuned, optimized version with the most critical and bottleneck sections written in tight hand-coded assembly (where feasible - if a C/C++ compiler does better, then go with it). I'd like to see multiple code paths where machines that are not compatible can run the standard stuff. Or another idea is to have an unofficial service pack to replace what files that would be compatible, and the ability to roll it back at any time. But these are pipe dreams.

Back to the topic, I am glad to see we are getting positive press. Now if we could only get more funds and more coders with the relevant skill-sets.
Last edited by PurpleGurl on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jessey
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by Jessey »

why is reactos 2nd and behind haiku. Haiku is the best on that list, no offense but haiku runs on real hardware, hell most of them run on real hardware, but not react os so it should be dead last.

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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by EmuandCo »

If you have such a big problem with reactos... why don't you just leave? Ever tried to clone something with almost no use able information? Don't think so
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Webunny
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by Webunny »

Jessey wrote:why is reactos 2nd and behind haiku. Haiku is the best on that list, no offense but haiku runs on real hardware, hell most of them run on real hardware, but not react os so it should be dead last.
That's not entirely true. I've been running ROS on real hardware for quite some time now.

Granted, development has been a bit slow, compared to some other OSes (then again, you have some who didn't even get as far neither).

PurpleGurl wrote:On funding, it seems we could have our own summer of code (though preferably under another name).
I'm not following you there. With a summer of code, it's the one organising it that lends time/money out to *other* organisations and projects. If we held a SOC, thus, we would be wasting our very limited resources (we're not google, after all) to other projects. If you're talking about spending our own money on ourselves, well, that's just normal practise and is as we're doing already now. As a project, it's WE that would benefit from the SOC of SOMEONE ELSE.
Keep in mind, GSOC is not the only internship promotion program out there. There is also one that is specifically for girls/women. I think some lady coders could help the community culture around here. It has gotten much better over the years, and the interactions in the boards are less critical and snippy. I guess the credit goes to the leadership as well as those who decided to be a part of the solution. I applaud that. Moving on, agreeing to host a female coding event could generate code and revenue. The key is finding what sponsors exist, and if we can comfortably fit within their agendas. If, for instance, some group wanted to pay companies and non-profits to get LGBT people more coding experience, I wouldn't care (despite my personal views) since people would be coding and helping us.
Again, organising a SOC, in the spirit of GSOC, means we'll sponsor *other* projects. And I don't know of any outside SOC specially for women. And besides... I'm not really for that kind of 'specific target audience' thing. It reminds me of the law that was passed a few years ago in my country, obliging political parties, businesses and what not to be forced to have a certain percentage of women. I mean, I'm all for equality, but, as some feminists have rightfully pointed out, mandatory quota's of women is actually *against* the principle of being regarded equal. It's positive discrimination, except that is a contradictio in terminis.

What *does* need to happen, is that the state has to make sure the starting conditions and opportunities are alike. Granted, this is not always the case and should be worked on. Compulsory quota's are the easy way out and remain discriminatory to a person who maybe was better suited or got more votes, but wasn't of the right gender. What's next? A mandatory quota of persons with a disability? Of black people? People from Maghreb origins? Asians? Homosexuals? Lesbians? People with red hair?

EVERY minority could ask with as much right to have the law changed so that they *have* to be chosen, even if someone else is better suited.

Needless to say that in such a way, one is destroying ones' own society since you do not make the distinction anymore between competent and incompetent people, but instead are focused on elements that have nothing to so with aptitude and ability, but are instead contrived notions that anything and everything must reflect the relative proportions in composition as society as a whole.

I refute that notion.

Here too, the only criteria should be how well people can and do code on ROS. Whether they are female or male is completely irrelevant to it.
Speaking of our goals. Considering how GSOC works the last time I read on their site, where half of their spending goes to the organization, and half to the intern coders, lets look in terms of the last fundraiser. That would be enough to fund 24 people for the same length of time and terms as GSOC. I am not suggesting anything, just throwing that up for comparison sake (unless my math or understanding is off, and I was rounding).
It's fundamentally different. The money of the fundraiser IS our money. We would have that with or without a GSOC. The GSOC would have given additional 'sponsorship' (in coding ability), however. The major part of our own money goes to our servers and such. I think. Can't be sure, because, as said, there is a huge deficit in transparency in this regard. But anyway, GSOCs help not only in immediate return, but also in getting some new blood interested. And for almost nothing (viewed from our perspective). The target audience too, is fundamentally different. They are students, who put their summer time in it. They get 'student wages' but it counts for their curriculum and have nothing better to do at that time. Whereas, when we want to hire someone, the pay is got to be reasonable, certainly if it's meant as a full time job, and not for only a few months or during the weekends. So you can't get as many people compared to GSOC personnel. With a yearly fundraising of 25000 euro, you have just enough to pay for one IT'er for one year, in my country. And even then he'll be underpaid. Using that money for 24 students for 2 months, would basically be a waste of the money. But if you get 4 from GSOC, it's still a welcome addition.

And I like the idea behind Kolibrios. It doesn't do much and doesn't have library dependencies and all of that. I know I've been shot down repeatedly, but once the project reaches a somewhat finalized state, I'd like to see a fine-tuned, optimized version with the most critical and bottleneck sections written in tight hand-coded assembly (where feasible -if a C/C++ compiler does better, then go with it). I'd like to see multiple code paths where machines that are not compatible can run the standard stuff. Or another idea is to have an unofficial service pack to replace what files that would be compatible, and the ability to roll it back at any time. But these are pipe dreams.
Of all the other OSes I think Haiku, Kolibri and AROS are the most interesting, viewed from an IT-tinkering stance and an 'unknown/rare'-feeling.
Back to the topic, I am glad to see we are getting positive press. Now if we could only get more funds and more coders with the relevant skill-sets.
With the 'alternative' OSes, we're usually always mentioned in the top 5.

EmuandCo wrote:If you have such a big problem with reactos... why don't you just leave? Ever tried to clone something with almost no use able information? Don't think so
Temper, temper.

He's only expressing his opinion. While what is 'the best' is debatable, and his remark that ROS 'doesn't work' on real hardware is incorrect, one can not deny that it (very) often has trouble running on real hardware, especially modern PC's. Viewed from the aspect of r/l usability, thus, he has a point that it should not be at the forefront of the list. For instance, OpenBSD is a lot more stable and useful than ROS at this moment. Of course, that's only true if one starts with that premise (or assumes that was the premise of the author of that article). However, it's fully possible that other - maybe more subjective - criteria were involved. Such as the ones I wrote to purplegirl.

Windows, OS X, Android...are all pretty known 'mainstream' OSes.

And, within the context of 'alternative OSes', Linux and BSD are 'mainstream' in their own right.

True 'niche' OSes which are really 'special' in some way, are exceedingly rare. This also makes them interesting, from a technical, conceptual and/or ideological standpoint. You only have a handful, under which ROS.
Last edited by Webunny on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

middings
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by middings »

I run ReactOS on real hardware. Real hardware is all that tester Oldman uses to run ReactOS.

I consider ReactOS to be, at this time, experimental software.
https://www.reactos.org wrote:ReactOS 0.3.16 is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

PurpleGurl
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by PurpleGurl »

Webunny wrote:
PurpleGurl wrote:On funding, it seems we could have our own summer of code (though preferably under another name).
I'm not following you there. With a summer of code, it's the one organising it that lends time/money out to *other* organisations and projects. If we held a SOC, thus, we would be wasting our very limited resources (we're not google, after all) to other projects. If you're talking about spending our own money on ourselves, well, that's just normal practise and is as we're doing already now. As a project, it's WE that would benefit from the SOC of SOMEONE ELSE.
There is not much to follow. We can raise the funds and hire our qualifying interns for the same length and way as GSOC would do it. I didn't say waste our funds on OTHER projects. No, we act as our OWN private "SOC" to bring in NEW coders. Google not only funds projects, but they send interns, and we could do this in-house. We could raise the funds for us and pay FRESH interns out of that to help us, just like Google would do for us.
Again, organising a SOC, in the spirit of GSOC, means we'll sponsor *other* projects. And I don't know of any outside SOC specially for women. And besides... I'm not really for that kind of 'specific target audience' thing. It reminds me of the law that was passed a few years ago in my country, obliging political parties, businesses and what not to be forced to have a certain percentage of women. I mean, I'm all for equality, but, as some feminists have rightfully pointed out, mandatory quota's of women is actually *against* the principle of being regarded equal. It's positive discrimination, except that is a contradictio in terminis.
Again, I mean an in-house summer of coding program specifically for ROS - organized by us, and FOR us. Instead of counting on GSOC to raise the funds, we do that ourselves. Then we can sponsor promising coders who are not already a part of the project, and try to groom them to be ROS devs. Maybe they go onto work for some IT company, using us as a job reference and experience, and they help us in their free time once we earn their loyalty. If they make big in life, they might even pull strings to help us, whether it is install ROS in a corporate environment, send coders our way, or send funds. That is not implausible since large companies already have a huge OS budget, so it seems they'd be willing to send donations which are a fraction of Windows costs.

As for my comments on outside GSOC-like programs, I was saying that we should apply to all the ones that exist. I wasn't saying to change any laws or agree with any agendas, but to take advantage of sponsorships by such organizations. Like with the female coding internship (Outreach Program for Women), we don't have to agree with affirmative action and all. But I think it would help us if we did have some female coders here. That would help more "geeky" gals to want to get involved. I've seen the challenges of fitting in here as a woman firsthand, though it is nowhere as tough as it is in the real world. Even a couple of the current male devs here confuse traits that are inherent to being born with a female brain with immaturity and want to force male traits onto us. But if we had more female devs, more women would feel welcomed to get involved and help the project.

And I agree with you on quotas and affirmative action sending the opposite message from what is intended. Eliminating inequality by condescending to the targets of it only sends the message that they are unequal and that nothing will ever change. However, I was not suggesting we get involved in politics. We are just here to create an OS, nothing else. But if 3rd parties with agendas want to throw money our way to give people they are sending us from whatever group to code, then why should we turn them down? It is regardless of race, nationality, gender, gender identity, appearance, sexual orientation, or religion. It don't matter.
What *does* need to happen, is that the state has to make sure the starting conditions and opportunities are alike. Granted, this is not always the case and should be worked on. Compulsory quota's are the easy way out and remain discriminatory to a person who maybe was better suited or got more votes, but wasn't of the right gender. What's next? A mandatory quota of persons with a disability? Of black people? People from Maghreb origins? Asians? Homosexuals? Lesbians? People with red hair?
...
Here too, the only criteria should be how well people can and do code on ROS. Whether they are female or male is completely irrelevant to it.
Exactly. However, if programs like OPW (Outreach Program for Women) are willing to send us female interns on their dime, I feel we should apply. Like I said, we don't have to agree with whatever agenda or underlying premise. Just accept their funds and the coders they send, so long as they are honest, competent, and dependable.
It's fundamentally different. The money of the fundraiser IS our money. We would have that with or without a GSOC. The GSOC would have given additional 'sponsorship' (in coding ability), however. The major part of our own money goes to our servers and such. I think. Can't be sure, because, as said, there is a huge deficit in transparency in this regard. But anyway, GSOCs help not only in immediate return, but also in getting some new blood interested. And for almost nothing (viewed from our perspective). The target audience too, is fundamentally different. They are students, who put their summer time in it. They get 'student wages' but it counts for their curriculum and have nothing better to do at that time. Whereas, when we want to hire someone, the pay is got to be reasonable, certainly if it's meant as a full time job, and not for only a few months or during the weekends. So you can't get as many people compared to GSOC personnel. With a yearly fundraising of 25000 euro, you have just enough to pay for one IT'er for one year, in my country. And even then he'll be underpaid. Using that money for 24 students for 2 months, would basically be a waste of the money. But if you get 4 from GSOC, it's still a welcome addition.
No it is not different in the way I meant things. What I am proposing is similar, just that WE raise the funds and hire our own student coders like GSOC sends us the funds and hires student coders for us. That is fundamentally the same thing. Like GSOC, if we did the same thing for ourselves in-house, we would have fresh blood. That was the ENTIRE point of what I posted before. I was only speaking of how to have the same effects of GSOC but without Google, and yes, it is much like we are doing with GHz and other coders, but I just said to do it more like GSOC where we'd have fresh blood. While GSOC is a blessing, they are not indispensable.

It is like American Idol and all of that. While that helps promising performers, that is NOT the only way to get there. Musicians did their own gigs for years. They did the legwork to get others interested in them and get the studios willing to offer the artists jobs. It started with a proof of concept like playing in local bars and nightclubs, generating publicity, and then approaching the large recording firms. If they are already a big local success, then the firms would be more willing to let them try on a more national or international level. Similar with GSOC. While Google makes it easier by pairing fresh programmers with struggling open source projects and throwing in a little cash to make it worthwhile, that is not the only salvation for us, and we should not get lazy or overly reliant on them.

So see, I was simply showing how we could have the same net effect as GSOC for us without Google. It just gets frustrating when one must explain and justify every single word and action.
Last edited by PurpleGurl on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

vicmarcal
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by vicmarcal »

Ey!Thanks guys!
Cool ideas here :)
Anyone willing to actively help?
I think it's a great idea to check others GSOC alternatives, but also our own GSOC.
Any small helper is really appreciated :)

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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by Webunny »

No, we act as our OWN GSOC to OURSELF, but bring in NEW coders. That is what Google does, not only do they fund projects, but they send interns. But we could do this in-house.
They send interns to, and fund OTHER projects. That's exactly my point. A GSOC is not meant for oneself, but for other projects. Google doesn't put the GSOC interns to use on their own projects nor do they use their GSOC budget on themselves, they let *other* organisations apply for their SOC. What you are describing is just hiring people, which, indeed, is pretty self-evident, but has little to do with a GSOC.

It's like saying you want to have a Soccer World Cup, but only applied to your own club. Well...that is no World Cup anymore then.

Or like saying that you want to do philanthropy, but then by spending the money on oneself. Well, that's not philanthropy anymore, then, is it?

As for my comments on outside GSOC-like programs, I was saying that we should apply to all the ones that exist. I wasn't saying to change any laws or agree with any agendas, but to take advantage of sponsorships by such organizations.
In that part of the post, I was speaking on the principle of the matter. It was a philosophical and society-critical aside, but one that would be clear, I assumed.
Exactly. However, if programs like OPW (Outreach Program for Women) are willing to send us female interns on their dime, I feel we should apply.
Agreed. It would be a waste not trying to get sponsorship of whatever comes along (with whatever personal agenda they have), as long as it doesn't infringe on our primary objectives.
vicmarcal wrote:Ey!Thanks guys!
Cool ideas here :)
Anyone willing to actively help?
I think it's a great idea to check others GSOC alternatives, but also our own GSOC.
Any small helper is really appreciated :)
You better name it something entirely different, then. A SOC in the sense of a GSOC gives the impression that it is similar, after all. Spending the money with the concept of letting OTHER organisations apply and sponsor THEIR projects you think interesting, is something entirely else (at least as a concept) then hiring your own devs for yourselves.
Last edited by Webunny on Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

PurpleGurl
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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by PurpleGurl »

I reread some of what I posted and I can see how some might be confused, and I apologize if I came across as less than civil (and I might go back and remove some portions or change the tone). I've suggested nothing in this thread I hadn't suggested a long time ago, which was either understood or ignored.

Well, there is nothing in the name "Summer of Code" itself that implies a broad scope to other organizations, but I did say from the start a different name should be used (legalities). I was only speaking from the scope of us. We don't care who else Google sends devs and funds to, so I was posting only from our limited scope and from the outcome side of things. We can do the same things GSOC does in regards to us. We can do our own fundraising campaigns and pay some fresh coders to get their feet wet and maybe get hooked on helping us. The concerns about how effective or beneficial this would be are certainly reasonable and worthy of discussion.

Now I agree with paying stipends to those with a proven track record - like we are already doing, to free up the devs from other obligations to get more work out of them. That certainly helps. The whole shell + explorer work certain proves that. But if we want to increase production speed and get others to take us more seriously, it will take more efforts than just that.

Another thing that we should be doing more of is trying to insert studying ROS in the curricula of as many universities as possible. There might be a professor at MIT to contact. Lynn Conway helped invent superscalar architecture and actually did invent the circuit design protocols needed for VLSI designs. So I imagine she has connections. I do know that a couple of the devs here are getting ROS into their local universities (Fireball teaches it, for instance). That is mutually beneficial. Students can learn about Windows internals by studying our code where we are confident it is structurally correct, and the professors and students can discover what we left out or don't have the best understanding. So they get to learn about those things together. So what we have done there is a good start, but I could see us trying to get ROS on the curriculum at more universities. So they learn about Windows through us, and those who actually fall in love with ROS can (and likely will) come our way.

I think a new thread might be beneficial since things have moved to discussing what will benefit ROS in general.
Last edited by PurpleGurl on Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ROS Mentioned as Alternative Operating System

Post by dizt3mp3r »

Do they have to be transexual?
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