A future for ROS?

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Webunny
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A future for ROS?

Post by Webunny »

Often people here or ROS developers emphasizes the advantages of ROS (compared to Windows) in matters of financial advantages; thus, that ROS is free, while Windows isn't. (aka, the 'free' as in beer). While currently true, one should realise MS isn't stupid, and I think, ultimately, this advantage will disappear. It's already starting now:

http://www.geek.com/microsoft/chromeboo ... t-1585635/

And maybe it will be even more so in the future, where it would become free (as in beer) also, comparable, thus, with ROS in this aspect - which means ROS wouldn't have any real advantage anymore on this front. See:

http://www.geek.com/microsoft/microsoft ... e-1586300/

This means, ultimately, ROS will have to search it's advantage in another area, sooner or later. One will not be able to use the sales-pitch for ever, as we can see. One way to do this is to be far more 'customisable' than Windows ever was or will be. I understand that, for now, one has to first make an XP clone, so one has a basis. But after that, and certainly when MS is going the way of 'ultra-cheap' or even 'free', ROS needs another convincing incentive than just the 'it's for free' monetary argument to keep the interest going. the only way to do that in the long run, is to offer more versatility and customisation and, generally, be proficient in things MS is not too good at. The monetary argument will not continue to hold up forever, after all.

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EmuandCo
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by EmuandCo »

You missed the factor, OPEN SOURCE. Meaning nor just free b33r, but also you can see what the OS does to your PC and what not. MS will never do that and could have secondary keys to get into it and more.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Doors
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Doors »

The future of ROS is not endangered by this.

Microsoft putting out low cost bing centered versions of windows is a continuation of their ongoing efforts to shift everyone to the cloud.
The difference lies in how the monthly subscription is paid.
Right now some companies, adobe for one, have customers who pay a monthly subscription to use the latest version of their software.
While this seems cheaper, especially with expensive software, it doesn't stay that way.
The other point is we are all subject to the fickle finger of ping, go ask 'simcity 5' users how well that works out.

If microsoft continues on this path, then windows will become like chrome, a cloud front end that is an OS in name only.
The devil as they say, is in the details.
If it is advertising driven, it is not free.
Storage and your profile will shift into the cloud so your account is always accessible.
Check how easy it is to store and use local files in a chrome book, or offline.

The success of Android lies in how it can be customized.
I have to admit nearly choking laughing when I saw a crude start menu on an android tablet.
The owner had coded a startmenu app to launch other apps.
It didn't work very well, but it could be done.

Of course this also means that while the version of windows may not cost money, it will still be closed source, and the user will still be stuck with those features deemed to be needed by corporate interests, not end user usability.
Do you think user feedback will have any weight with microsoft after that.
They pay no attention now while they charge for it, (Look at the sales figures for 8 if you want a laugh), how much will they care once it is free.
For me that would mean no more usable menus, while I have an opinion of touch interfaces, this forum is not the place for that sort of language.

Look at Linux, flashy cartoon like UI, related items scattered, something like 10 different desktops.
Yet against windows, especially the newer versions, it is gaining ground.
It is getting better(slowly), while windows is getting worse (quickly).

A free windows that cannot be customized will fail against a free Reactos that can be.
The ability of Reactos to be adaptable to how the user wants it means it will be the winner in the end.

Windows has gone off the rails, Linux has no GUI guru to go with its Kernel guru.
Reactos though has a guide, a starting point, not an end point.
Unlike windows, but like linux, it is not restricted to one voice.
It has the coherence of Windows for a starting place, yet the openness of Linux.

Ultimately I believe it will be able to use menus based on win9x, win2k, winxp, vista, 7, or even 8 if someone is willing to do the work.
There is nothing preventing them from all being available in windows except a lack of corporate vision.
There is nothing to prevent them all from being in Reactos at all.
At its core both Reactos and Windows can both use any desktop UI they want on a per profile basis.
When compared though, Windows is removing features while Reactos is adding and stabilizing them.
This is why Reactos will win, windows constricts while reactos blooms.

Microsoft's focus on forcing users onto the cloud will be its downfall.
We own our computers, we own our data, in the long run this is what matters.

You are welcome to look at the world through a window.
As for me, I'm opening a door and going there.

Ramblings of an open door.

Webunny
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Webunny »

EmuandCo wrote:You missed the factor, OPEN SOURCE. Meaning nor just free b33r, but also you can see what the OS does to your PC and what not. MS will never do that and could have secondary keys to get into it and more.
Well, that's what I mean by customisation and versatility, so I didn't miss it. But this is rather the goal, whereas open source is the means to get it (let's face it, for an ordinary enduser, it doesn't really matter if it's open source or closed source, when it's free and it does what one wants). So I'm not sure what you mean by the 'missed' factor of it being 'open source'. Of course it is. But seeing open source as an ends to a means, instead of a means to an end is looking at it from a developers standpoint, not the common user. On itself, that's no selling point, thus.The casual user does not have much interest in seeing what's *under* the hood, he wants to get what he wants *above* the hood (aka, the experience he gets), and preferably for free.

Currently, the argument is predominantly made in regard to the monetary/financial aspect of it, but as the links show, this could become a non-argument in the future. Which means the 'free' argument will become obsolete (it is still a valid argument now, though), thus one will have to go with the 'what one wants' options thereafter.

Could still be a long way until MS gives it away for free to everyone, though. But they aren't as stupid as one might think (alas). This also reminds me of the suggestion for a next kickstarter someone made here on the forum, where one said to focus ROS on specific hardware, like the the arduino or raspberry pi or small, cheap netbooks and such, because there ROS could be a discerning difference. After all, if you have to pay 150 euro, and 50 of that is for Windows, it's a very large part of the costs. If, however, as the links show, MS is anticipating on this, and sells it for 15 instead of 50 euro, there is a lot less incentive to change. It's gone from a 30% cut to a 10% cut. This will undoubtedly mean even lower spec HW will remain using windows for a far longer time in the future.

vicmarcal
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by vicmarcal »

Reactos is part of the opensource philosophy. If MS is thinking about moving to Free then we can say that thanks to opensource alternatives MS had to become free. A movement that MS couldnt even thought 10 years ago.
A big win.
And about ReactOS, MS needs to move to opensource if they want to be the same as Ros is.
You can feel safe, when using ReactOS, about not having a NSA backdoor. Dunno about Microsoft counterpart, I dont have access to the code.

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Black_Fox
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Black_Fox »

vicmarcal wrote:If MS is thinking about moving to Free then we can say that thanks to opensource alternatives MS had to become free. A movement that MS couldnt even thought 10 years ago.
I agree, without raising threat of Linux/Android, and to somewhat lesser degree ReactOS, Microsoft would never have made that move. It's very similar to the browser revolution thing that happened in the past, but now it's in the operating system department.
Doors wrote:Look at Linux, flashy cartoon like UI, related items scattered, something like 10 different desktops.
That's either bull or by far not everybody's opinion. There isn't any more flashy cartoon UI in Linux than is in Windows/Mac, items organisation is a matter of custom (AKA, if you had 15 years of Linux and came to Windows, you'd probably say the same of the other side), the 10 desktops are optional, so there's always only the 1 desktop environment, the one that works the best for you; it's choice. The lack of choice is why, even though the under-the-hood improvements in Win7 are irrefutable in general, you hate the whole package for its above-the-hood changes.

Z98
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Z98 »

What, exactly, is your concern here? Cause I'm not seeing anything explicitly stated beyond some hand wringing about how ReactOS can't use the "free of cost" argument, one that in the long term was always considered internally as one of the weakest positions the project could take anyway.

Webunny
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:What, exactly, is your concern here? Cause I'm not seeing anything explicitly stated beyond some hand wringing about how ReactOS can't use the "free of cost" argument, one that in the long term was always considered internally as one of the weakest positions the project could take anyway.
Well, it was a position that was more than once mentioned by posters, and I wanted to point out this is probably not a good way to look at things. There is no hand wringing btw, it's just a topic to discuss, nothing more, nothing less.

But the monetary aspect was and is one that is often mentioned, at least by most posters and normal users - contrary to the 'internal' consideration, apparently. In fact, as said, one specific avenue some posters were taking was for ROS to be optimised for specific low-cost HW, but if MS keeps lowering it's prices (for things <250 dollar), that won't do much good. I agree with blackfox and vicmarcal though, that it's thanks to alternatives (more like Linux and Android though, ROS probably doesn't come into their view as of now) that MS is forced to lower the prices in the first place, so that's a good thing on it's own. Fact remains it's currently one of the 'selling-points', but that will probably change in the future, so I guess the versatility and customisation (as 'selling-point') should become more pronounced in the future.

gamax92
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by gamax92 »

Doors wrote:The success of Android lies in how it can be customized.
Doors wrote:Look at Linux, flashy cartoon like UI, related items scattered, something like 10 different desktops.
Except that as far as a GUI goes, you can use tons of DM's and WM's like fluxbox, gnome 3, Enlightenment, fvwm, fvwm 2, lxde, openbox, cinnamon, kde, mate, unity, blackbox, afterstep, xfce, jwm, etc ...
The list continues growing of the choices you can use for the X GUI, and many of these managers also have theme capabilities to go from cartoons to flat colors to high contrasts to gradients.
The number of workspaces, menus, the things on the panels, all can be configured. There is quite a lot of customizing you can do in Linux. I really fail to see how Linux is only a flashy cartoon UI.

theuserbl
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by theuserbl »

I think, mid-term ReactOS could be a nice Operating System for magazines.
Most magazines have Windows-User as intended audience.
But for some things, they publishing Linux-LiveDVDs like PartedMagic (for partition) or a distrubution for safe Internet use for banking or so.

I think, they would be happy, if they could use an OS, which looks, feels and handles exactly like Windows and where Windows programs can run on.
For example: If there existing a closed source partition-program, they could use ReactOS + that program instead of Parted Magic.

Greatings
theuserbl

Bluebee
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Bluebee »

Maybe Microsoft will support ReactOS, just to survive!
I found this on Wikipedia:
Wikipeadia wrote: Microsoft software is ... presented as a "safe" choice for IT managers purchasing software systems. In an internal memo for senior management Microsoft's head of C++ development, Aaron Contorer, stated:

“ The Windows API is so broad, so deep, and so functional that most Independent Software Vendors would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system instead... It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision at times, and many other difficulties ... Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, but it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move. In short, without this exclusive franchise called the Windows API, we would have been dead a long time ago.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... or_lock-in

MadWolf
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by MadWolf »

imho thay can not sell windows 8 so they may give it away for free i am not going to use windows 8 until nLite for Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 is released to get rid of metro and to get rid of unnecessary rubbish

Bluebee
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by Bluebee »

To me the worst thing of Windows 7 - and Windows 8 may be eben worse - is that Windows 7 is trashing productivity.

To make it "looking nicer" they abandoned functions which helped me as a software developer to be productive.
For several often used functions the number of clicks to go has been increased, reducing productivity.

I hope ReactOS will stay as easy as XP was and is.

mrugiero
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by mrugiero »

Well, MS will always get their money from somewhere. It is true that they are starting to pay less attention to the price tag of Windows, but at the same time they are charging 30% for any app sold on their app store. Important to note, it is not a criticism, it's just their current business model, and as a company they need one, and not only that, but it's the same business model competitors use (the percentage can vary). However, ReactOS is free as in beer and as in speech. Aside from the fact you could scrutinize the code, you don't need that business model: people who need a feature, can pay someone for the specific feature to be implemented. Users and developers targetting it don't pay more than they want to, but people who work on the code can get paid. Kind of crowd sourced (kind of, because it'd be mostly companies paying, the same way it happens with the Linux kernel and other free software projects). That's an advantage that will never go away: ReactOS doesn't really need a business model, it just needs a reasonable donation model. If you are not in a position to pay, but find the OS fits your needs, you can use it, free of charge. If you need features it doesn't have, you'll have to pay for them. You'd be paying for them anyway with commercial software, just indirectly and with the remark the company is obliged to impose.
Last edited by mrugiero on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

tomleem
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Re: A future for ROS?

Post by tomleem »

Bluebee wrote:To me the worst thing of Windows 7 - and Windows 8 may be even worse - is that Windows 7 is trashing productivity.

To make it "looking nicer" they abandoned functions which helped me as a software developer to be productive.
For several often used functions the number of clicks to go has been increased, reducing productivity.
For me, Windows 8 makes me appreciate Windows 7. Windows 7 makes me appreciate Windows XP and miss it a lot.
:cry:
I hope ReactOS will stay as easy as XP was and is.
I am also hoping that ROS will be as easy as XP but with more power. 8-)
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