Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

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robolee
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by robolee » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:38 am

The kickstarter will fail.

It IS going to fail (the numbers don't lie).

Unless you change your abysmal campaign page.

First of all like people have said you need a kickstarter focused video on the main page instead of an image and I couldn't agree more. You'd like to believe people are smart and will read the whole thing and watch the linked videos and such but unless you have their curiosity you don't have their time and they wont waste it on reading a ton of "corporate focused" "tech speak".

You need to summarize what thorium core is from a user perspective: "Thorium Core is a commercial distribution of ReactOS, the Open Source Windows compatible operating system, targeted for cloud computing" - Basically says nothing except that it uses Reactos for ... cloud stuff. That's your hook line right there. The image you use is actually good because it shows what the actual use is: to stream a cloud based version of ReactOS, with all your work and files, to any of your supported devices anywhere where an internet connection is available*. Now THAT gets my attention. But that image is the only place that just outright says this plainly and clearly on the main page of the kickstarter and it's hard to find out that kind of information elsewhere.

*This is if I am understanding the update #1 video correctly where Steven Edwards says "the thorium group is developing a cloud infrastructure for service delivery of the thorium core as a virtual desktop infrastructure solution". So very very few people are going to watch it, they might skim through it and get a tiny bit of insight on ReactOS but probably just give up on seeing the length of the video.

The video on the main page is bad because for one thing it's over an hour long, the video has 3m40s of introduction and nothingness and it's not until 5m56s until he finishes his own introduction and actually starts talking about the subject of reactOS, but then that is all the talk is about. Nothing about Thorium.

The update video was at least somewhat informative but was overall terrible, it started with a weird corporate style intro and the audio was all over the place (could barely make out what the second guy was saying), the lighting was bad, people in it were uncharismatic, and the wording/script was terrible. Surely one of you guys have a girlfriend/brother/sister/niece/cousin/uncle/friend or other relation that can read a script with at least faux enthusiasm in a room/area with at least reasonable lighting. I was going to say good microphones aren't even that expensive but turns out this really good one costs only £25 ($40) here but over $80 in america so yeah audio could still be a problem. But you are probably going to have to spend some money to make a decent video and take that out of the project fund goal (but then you also have to accept the risk that there's a chance you wont make it back).

So focus more on primarily enticing people with the benefits of Thorium to an end user (even if corporations are your main target) when they first see the page. Like if you could show just one sentance to a person on the street to convince them to buy something, you entice them with the very best thing that the product could offer. That's your first impression and it needs to be clear, easy to understand, and interesting. Speak about what it can do for them, then speak about what it is -again all in plain language that is easy to understand-, and then you can go into detail on the technical aspects, legalities, risks, expectations and so forth.

To put it bluntly a kickstarter is less so a company/product proposal and more about selling your idea to investors that are just average people. People won't back even the best most life changing idea unless it is presented well. Many people won't even back unless there is some reward incentive... People have already expressed that the rewards aren't for them, but for this particular project the only thing I can think of is random merchandising tat like t-shirts and stuff.

If this seems like a slap in the face it kind of is, I've been a following the development of ReactOS since perhaps before 2010 and I fully support the project and wish it to become a viable alternative to windows. Getting this kickstarter right could fairly obviously bring ReactOS forwards tremendously... But you're not doing it right, and you need to correct that before it's too late. If you want my help with anything feel free to ask.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:35 am

robolee wrote:The kickstarter will fail.

It IS going to fail (the numbers don't lie).

Unless you change your abysmal campaign page.

First of all like people have said you need a kickstarter focused video on the main page instead of an image and I couldn't agree more. You'd like to believe people are smart and will read the whole thing and watch the linked videos and such but unless you have their curiosity you don't have their time and they wont waste it on reading a ton of "corporate focused" "tech speak".

You need to summarize what thorium core is from a user perspective: "Thorium Core is a commercial distribution of ReactOS, the Open Source Windows compatible operating system, targeted for cloud computing" - Basically says nothing except that it uses Reactos for ... cloud stuff. That's your hook line right there. The image you use is actually good because it shows what the actual use is: to stream a cloud based version of ReactOS, with all your work and files, to any of your supported devices anywhere where an internet connection is available*. Now THAT gets my attention. But that image is the only place that just outright says this plainly and clearly on the main page of the kickstarter and it's hard to find out that kind of information elsewhere.

*This is if I am understanding the update #1 video correctly where Steven Edwards says "the thorium group is developing a cloud infrastructure for service delivery of the thorium core as a virtual desktop infrastructure solution". So very very few people are going to watch it, they might skim through it and get a tiny bit of insight on ReactOS but probably just give up on seeing the length of the video.

The video on the main page is bad because for one thing it's over an hour long, the video has 3m40s of introduction and nothingness and it's not until 5m56s until he finishes his own introduction and actually starts talking about the subject of reactOS, but then that is all the talk is about. Nothing about Thorium.

The update video was at least somewhat informative but was overall terrible, it started with a weird corporate style intro and the audio was all over the place (could barely make out what the second guy was saying), the lighting was bad, people in it were uncharismatic, and the wording/script was terrible. Surely one of you guys have a girlfriend/brother/sister/niece/cousin/uncle/friend or other relation that can read a script with at least faux enthusiasm in a room/area with at least reasonable lighting. I was going to say good microphones aren't even that expensive but turns out this really good one costs only £25 ($40) here but over $80 in america so yeah audio could still be a problem. But you are probably going to have to spend some money to make a decent video and take that out of the project fund goal (but then you also have to accept the risk that there's a chance you wont make it back).

So focus more on primarily enticing people with the benefits of Thorium to an end user (even if corporations are your main target) when they first see the page. Like if you could show just one sentance to a person on the street to convince them to buy something, you entice them with the very best thing that the product could offer. That's your first impression and it needs to be clear, easy to understand, and interesting. Speak about what it can do for them, then speak about what it is -again all in plain language that is easy to understand-, and then you can go into detail on the technical aspects, legalities, risks, expectations and so forth.

To put it bluntly a kickstarter is less so a company/product proposal and more about selling your idea to investors that are just average people. People won't back even the best most life changing idea unless it is presented well. Many people won't even back unless there is some reward incentive... People have already expressed that the rewards aren't for them, but for this particular project the only thing I can think of is random merchandising tat like t-shirts and stuff.

If this seems like a slap in the face it kind of is, I've been a following the development of ReactOS since perhaps before 2010 and I fully support the project and wish it to become a viable alternative to windows. Getting this kickstarter right could fairly obviously bring ReactOS forwards tremendously... But you're not doing it right, and you need to correct that before it's too late. If you want my help with anything feel free to ask.
Yes, objectively speaking, there is a high chance the project will fail. It's at over half the allotted time, and only a quarter of the funds, and the majority of the sponsors will now already have made a contribution, apart from a sudden surge in extra media-coverage. (because I still think this is the main source for additional sponsors). I've expressed my reservations about it here before, and wouldn't have gone the way they did it, personally. I also think some comments on Kickstarter have some valid points, especially concerning the campaign.

Yet, I'll give it the chance and the opportunity it's asking, and there is no need to beat a dead horse, even if it doesn't succeed. I'm well aware it's easier said than done, after all, and one can also see it as a learning experience. I think they made some strategic mistakes, but I'm not feeling like repeating the whole thing. In any case, one can always try again with a completely different approach, even if that were more a one shot than a try for continuous income (which didn't pan out). Ah well, it still has over 2 weeks time... we'll see how it goes; you never know.

perseus
Posts: 8
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by perseus » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:23 pm

I just pledged support for Thorium Core. Even though we have some ways to go, I would like to encourage my fellow REACTOS supporters to do the same and pledge your support! :)

helsinkiharbour
Posts: 23
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:31 pm

perseus wrote:I just pledged support for Thorium Core. Even though we have some ways to go, I would like to encourage my fellow REACTOS supporters to do the same and pledge your support! :)

Indeed, the campaign is not over and we should use this chance as good as possible, so spread the word everyone! :)

As this campaign addresses now more business than end-user: what companies with a potential fitting use case were contacted/informed already? (for instance, I think Limux could be one such a business user)

DOSGuy
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by DOSGuy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:00 pm

I'll tell you what I want Thorium Core to do.

My website uses jDosbox to make DOS games playable in a Java applet in your browser. DOSBox is capable of running a copy of Windows 3.1 and even Windows 98, but it wouldn't be legal for me to put a copy of Windows in a disk image on my website, which anyone could download. It would be legal for me to put a copy of ROS in a disk image. jDosbox can run ReactOS -- though not well -- when jDosbox is run as an offline Java application. The memory limitations that are enforced on an in-browser Java applet (64 MB, I think) don't allow ROS to run in a jDosbox applet. (Even if I could, only one game from my website currently works perfectly under ROS, and two others are mostly playable.)

That creates the market for Thorium Core. I want to be able to run a copy of ROS in a VM on a dedicated server and then stream the output to a user over the internet. It's the same thing that JPC2 did with Windows XP. Basically, I'm talking about PlayStation Now for Windows games, with Thorium Core offering the Gaikai service. Make that possible (and get ReactOS compatible with a reasonable number of DirectX games) and I'll take out a second mortgage and take a year of leave from my job to acquire the dedicated server and bandwidth capacity to host the service, and acquire the rights to stream popular full version Windows games over the internet. The first person to offer a service like this will be a millionaire. Make it so that I can serve popular Windows games through a subscription-based website and I'll cover the rest of the pledge money myself.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

helsinkiharbour
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Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:40 am

Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:06 am

DOSGuy wrote:I'll tell you what I want Thorium Core to do.

My website uses jDosbox to make DOS games playable in a Java applet in your browser. DOSBox is capable of running a copy of Windows 3.1 and even Windows 98, but it wouldn't be legal for me to put a copy of Windows in a disk image on my website, which anyone could download. It would be legal for me to put a copy of ROS in a disk image. jDosbox can run ReactOS -- though not well -- when jDosbox is run as an offline Java application. The memory limitations that are enforced on an in-browser Java applet (64 MB, I think) don't allow ROS to run in a jDosbox applet. (Even if I could, only one game from my website currently works perfectly under ROS, and two others are mostly playable.)

That creates the market for Thorium Core. I want to be able to run a copy of ROS in a VM on a dedicated server and then stream the output to a user over the internet. It's the same thing that JPC2 did with Windows XP. Basically, I'm talking about PlayStation Now for Windows games, with Thorium Core offering the Gaikai service. Make that possible (and get ReactOS compatible with a reasonable number of DirectX games) and I'll take out a second mortgage and take a year of leave from my job to acquire the dedicated server and bandwidth capacity to host the service, and acquire the rights to stream popular full version Windows games over the internet. The first person to offer a service like this will be a millionaire. Make it so that I can serve popular Windows games through a subscription-based website and I'll cover the rest of the pledge money myself.
Great idea! Go for it! :D

Frontier
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Frontier » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:26 am

DOSGuy: If you're serious you should contact Aleksey Bragin and Steven Edwards as soon as it's convenient and discuss the feasibility of your idea. You can pop onto the IRC dev channel any time as well.

We do have initial support for directx, and Arwinss allows streaming to remote X servers (which could include a client's pc). Steven is/was a dev of the Win32 subsystem and Aleksey developed Arwinss so they will have a much better idea on how this could work.

DOSGuy
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by DOSGuy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:17 pm

I've been testing ReactOS/Arwinss for years, and game compatibility is nowhere close to where it needs to be. Maybe it would be if they had $120,000 to work on it, but it's a Catch-22: I can't bet the farm without some assurance that ReactOS will reach the level it needs to be at, and ReactOS won't reach the level it needs to be at any time soon unless someone bets the farm. I am serious when I say that the first person to capitalize on the ability to allow remote execution of Windows games, without needing to purchase a license for thousands of copies of Windows, will be a millionaire, and I would make a $100k bet to become that millionaire. That bet depends on two components: the ability of Thorium Core, or some other solution, to facilitate the streaming of ReactOS instances to a webpage; and the ability of ReactOS to run games that people would pay to play. I don't understand the Kickstarter page's technobabble well enough to know if Thorium Core can be the first component, and I know that ReactOS can't currently meet the second requirement. I need assurances on both points.

At this point, I'm assuming that the Kickstarter campaign is going to fail. I don't know if I could complete the loan application fast enough to save it, even if Aleksey and Steven could convince me that I should. This is really more to let them know what the target should be for the second attempt. If they can convince me, and people like me, that ReactOS and Thorium Core could facilitate the streaming of Windows games to paid subscribers, they'll have no trouble getting the money they want next time. I will invest a lot of money in it if I have to.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

helsinkiharbour
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:48 am

DOSGuy wrote:I've been testing ReactOS/Arwinss for years, and game compatibility is nowhere close to where it needs to be. Maybe it would be if they had $120,000 to work on it, but it's a Catch-22: I can't bet the farm without some assurance that ReactOS will reach the level it needs to be at, and ReactOS won't reach the level it needs to be at any time soon unless someone bets the farm. I am serious when I say that the first person to capitalize on the ability to allow remote execution of Windows games, without needing to purchase a license for thousands of copies of Windows, will be a millionaire, and I would make a $100k bet to become that millionaire. That bet depends on two components: the ability of Thorium Core, or some other solution, to facilitate the streaming of ReactOS instances to a webpage; and the ability of ReactOS to run games that people would pay to play. I don't understand the Kickstarter page's technobabble well enough to know if Thorium Core can be the first component, and I know that ReactOS can't currently meet the second requirement. I need assurances on both points.

At this point, I'm assuming that the Kickstarter campaign is going to fail. I don't know if I could complete the loan application fast enough to save it, even if Aleksey and Steven could convince me that I should. This is really more to let them know what the target should be for the second attempt. If they can convince me, and people like me, that ReactOS and Thorium Core could facilitate the streaming of Windows games to paid subscribers, they'll have no trouble getting the money they want next time. I will invest a lot of money in it if I have to.
Yeah, fair enough! But I'm sure you are aware... if it would be trivial and without risk... someone else would already have done it... so, you still have the chance ;)

milon
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by milon » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:48 pm

DOSGuy wrote:...At this point, I'm assuming that the Kickstarter campaign is going to fail. I don't know if I could complete the loan application fast enough to save it, even if Aleksey and Steven could convince me that I should. This is really more to let them know what the target should be for the second attempt. If they can convince me, and people like me, that ReactOS and Thorium Core could facilitate the streaming of Windows games to paid subscribers, they'll have no trouble getting the money they want next time. I will invest a lot of money in it if I have to.
I'm just going to add that there's lots of people like DOSGuy who would have immediate use for a license-free Windows-compatible environment that can be streamed to a PC (webpage). It would find lots of applications in corporate environments, for example.

Side note, but apparently it's key to have a $25 option on Kickstarter. I haven't done my homework, but I read it on OSNews (a comment on the Thorium Kickstarter, actually).

Z98
Release Engineer
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Z98 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:22 am

That the structuring of the rewards is problematic I won't argue. Unfortunately fixing the structure would have required slagging all of the rewards.

perseus
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by perseus » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:30 pm

I have a question related to publicizing this effort (i.e., Thorium Core). Is it too late for us to make press releases to certain news agencies that might actually provide some free publicity for this project? This might be something that has already been done for Thorium Core, but I'm just asking.

For example, posting or emailing announcements to any of the following news services might be helpful:

news@theregister.co.uk
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11b.html?1
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11e.html
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/tips/newstips.html

helsinkiharbour
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:40 am

Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:16 am

perseus wrote:I have a question related to publicizing this effort (i.e., Thorium Core). Is it too late for us to make press releases to certain news agencies that might actually provide some free publicity for this project? This might be something that has already been done for Thorium Core, but I'm just asking.

For example, posting or emailing announcements to any of the following news services might be helpful:

news@theregister.co.uk
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11b.html?1
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11e.html
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/tips/newstips.html

Thanks for your effort... if you are knowledgeable how to contact effectively the press or you have direct connections... go for it!
I think, every supporter counts and makes a second campaign more probable (if this late started one might stuck...).

helsinkiharbour
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:40 am

Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Hmm, another high potential ReactOS user, China?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/14 ... lag_linux/

ReactOS would fit their use case technically much better, while they still could "rival" the US. Someone with good contacts to the Chinese government, to inform them about Thorium? ;P

Aeneas
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Aeneas » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:19 pm

"Thorium" does not help.

"ReactOS" helps - if it can be installed and used by those people who are your target audience.

China has some 90% pirated Windows, and Gates himself said, he prefers it that way, rather than them using Linux.

Your market, so far, are exclusively geeks. They are the only group of people who would put up with an unfinished OS "for the sake of it" or for "reasons of eccentricity" (universities are not interested - on my approach, I was told, if the want to teach the NT-architecture, they'll take Windows). So - no "research", sorry, you stick with geeks. Thorium does not target geeks. It targets the type of people who use IBM zOS, and that is like going in a swimming suit to the opera.

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