Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

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Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:14 pm

Ok. By now, one has to be realistic. Short of a miracle like some multi-millionaire suddenly investing in Reactos, the project will fail. There's only 4 days left, and less than a quarter of the necessary funding there.

Do we all agree on this?

Now, while I don't want to say 'I told you so' I DO remain of the opinion one has made some strategic mistakes, and I think going for it in another way would have made more sense (and still does, for future trials). One can see the discussion of this here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12962&start=30#p105695

Apart from that, there are also some more practical issues in regard to the campaign. There have been some valuable comments on Kickstarter in this regard. This can even mean simple things, in a psychological context: for instance, it has been statistically proven to be an advantage to have a 1 dollar gift/reward on there (even if it's just a 'thank you' notification as reward). Why? Because it has proven that if you put that on there, there are more people contributing to the 5 or 10 dollar award. That might seem strange, but that's how human psychology works. I don't think these things were ever considered by the people going with the 'thorium' kickstarter thing.

Anyway, for the moment it seems a lost cause now, and even if one decided to go for a more traditional 'one shot' campaign with the name 'Reactos' , it would still be advisable to let some time pass between the two. (Also, maybe go for half the sponsoring, aka 60000 instead of 120000. This would still be double the amount of the sponsoring-bar in 2013 (or was it 2012?) that was on the main site.)

Which isn't the case now, btw. So I'm wondering whether we didn't shoot in our own for with this one. If 'thorium' doesn't succeed, I gather all the sponsoring becomes invalid and returns back to the sponsors? Which means it will not amount to anything, and worse, during that time, we also didn't have a sponsoring-bar for ROS working, so we loose out on that one too. One has to be careful to not have (almost) ANY considerable sponsoring left to support ROS, this way. Because now, you didn't get kickstarter, but you didn't get the additional sponsor-bar neither, and I'm betting the 'usual' way of getting sponsoring by directly giving money was a lot less too this time, just because a majority already gave to the Thorium project (which now will amount to nothing, in regard to getting any money), AND most people who sponsored there, won't sponsor anything additional through some other means (like the traditional sponsoring/gifting on the mainpage).

Am I correct in this assumption? If 'thorium' doesn't pan out - and this seems highly likely now - will it not have come back to bite us and have we not received a lot LESS sponsoring in the traditional way? So, unless all the people who donated to Thorium also donate *again* in the more traditional way after the thorium kickstarter project doesn't succeed, won't we have a huge discrepancy in funding, compared to other years? z98, can you answer this? Because according to me, when I apply logic to it, I can't but conclude that we currently (compared to other years around this time) will ultimately be left with a lot less funding.

In any case, I'm considering to donate a bit more this year since the funding of Thorium doesn't seem to pan out. All little compensations count, after all.

That said, I've been told that Reactos is a recognised non-profit organisation in Germany (and thus in the EU), so any donation above 40 euro's should be tax-deductible. Is this true? I've been researching a bit, and it seems that while in principle a donation to another recognised non-profit eligible for tax-reduction in one country of the EU is valid for the whole EU, if one wants to be able to use the 45% of tax-reduction on the amount given, one still needs some 'certification'-paper, as I understand it. Can the Reactos foundation provide this? In that case, I would augment my donation to it considerably.
Last edited by Webunny on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Black_Fox
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Black_Fox » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:51 pm

Webunny wrote:I 'thorium' doesn't succeed, I gather all the sponsoring becomes invalid and returns to the sponsors?
The money leaves their owner's accounts if and only if the given Kickstarter is successful AND the funding period ends.
Webunny wrote:That said, I've been told that Reactos is a recognised non-profit organisation in Germany (and thus in the EU), so any donation above 40 euro's should be tax-deductible. Is this true? I've been researching a bit, an it seems that while in principle a donation to another recognised non-profit eligible for ta-reduction in one country of the EU is valid for the whole EU, if one wants to be able to use the 45% of tax-reduction on the amount given, one still needs some 'certification'-paper, as I understand it. Can the Reactos foundation provide this?
I wonder about this too, it would be interesting to know... and valuable to give 40€ to ROS.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:53 pm

Black_Fox wrote:
Webunny wrote:I 'thorium' doesn't succeed, I gather all the sponsoring becomes invalid and returns to the sponsors?
The money leaves their owner's accounts if and only if the given Kickstarter is successful AND the funding period ends.
Exactly.

But if the Kickstarter funding doesn't pan out, it means that all the sponsors that sponsored there (since there was no sponsorbar on the site this year) have to re-sponsor here, in the traditional way(s). If they (still) want to sponsor ROS, that is. Theoretically, that poses no problem, but in practise, I'm thinking this will amount to less sponsoring/funding this time around.

I any case, as far as I can see it, the thorium-project collected about as much money as the donationbar on ROS itself: around 30000 dollars. It seems to be somewhat of the limit, with our current popularity (though Kickstarter did gain it in 60 days while the donationbar took one year - but that doesn't matter if (almost) nothing comes adding to it afterwards.)

I still think it possible that with a more concentrated and well-thought-out campaign under the name of Reactos itself it would have been possible to gain around 60000, though. Of course, that would be a one shot approach (at least, for that year), but it still would be better than nothing. But as shown in the former link, the devs weren't too keen on that idea. Of course, I'm talking after the facts (well, almost) now, so I have it easy. I'm wondering what the next plan will be, however?

Because, as said, it's quite possible there will be a dip in funding now. I don't think everyone is going to do like me and re-fund ROS again in the more traditional way. So I would suggest to maybe set up a donationbar again after Kickstarter failed? One has to do something, and not throwing hands in the air.
Webunny wrote:That said, I've been told that Reactos is a recognised non-profit organisation in Germany (and thus in the EU), so any donation above 40 euro's should be tax-deductible. Is this true? I've been researching a bit, an it seems that while in principle a donation to another recognised non-profit eligible for ta-reduction in one country of the EU is valid for the whole EU, if one wants to be able to use the 45% of tax-reduction on the amount given, one still needs some 'certification'-paper, as I understand it. Can the Reactos foundation provide this?
I wonder about this too, it would be interesting to know... and valuable to give 40€ to ROS.
Indeed. With 45% or more (it'll depend on your country, I think) tax-reduction, all those who give 20-30 euro now, could go for 40-50 euro and still only have about the same amount being 'lost'. For even greater amounts, it becomes even more interesting. (obviously, for smaller amounts like 1-10 euro it has little influence, because you need at least 40 euro's to be tax-deductible, and I think that's a EU requirement.)

Marzz
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Marzz » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:47 pm

Tax-deductable donations for ReactOS.. Cool! :D
As a comment on earlier post(s), I dont immediately see why donations would be lower for ROS than for Thorium; one of the most often raised complaints was that people were more interested in a desktop ROS version than Thorium - many even pledged without a reward.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:08 pm

Marzz wrote:Tax-deductable donations for ReactOS.. Cool! :D
As a comment on earlier post(s), I dont immediately see why donations would be lower for ROS than for Thorium; one of the most often raised complaints was that people were more interested in a desktop ROS version than Thorium - many even pledged without a reward.
Because they already donated to Thorium. It has noting to do with a reward or not, it's simply that most of the backers there were probably the same as were backing ROS with the donationbar on the site. Will everyone there (on Kickstarter) now re-do their sponsoring on the ROS site when Thorium doesn't pan out? I sort of doubt it. Logically, this poses no problem, since they will not have lost any money with the Kickstarter project (when it fails), but psychologically it doesn't quite work that way. However you look at it, one has to 1)be aware that the donation on Kickstarter amounted to nothing, 2)do the effort a second time on this site, and 3)you lost two months of time that the donationbar was up, compared to 2012.

Black_Fox
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Black_Fox » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:08 pm

Somebody just pledged $20,000, twenty thousand in other words. This is awesome! Will you join me to support that pledge? Of course I don't have that amount of money, but even in my post-communist country I can put together $100.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:02 pm

Black_Fox wrote:Somebody just pledged $20,000, twenty thousand in other words. This is awesome! Will you join me to support that pledge? Of course I don't have that amount of money, but even in my post-communist country I can put together $100.
Guess that's the closest we'll come to the 'millionaire that decide to back ROS'. ;-)

It's great to see such an individual who is seemingly rich and enthusiast enough to make such a donation.

Alas, it won't be enough. We'd need another 3-4 of such millionaires...and there's only 60 hours left. With $100 it needs another 700+ pledges of that amount and we're currently at...19. I don't want to be negative about it, but realistically spoken it's too little too late. I understand the devs want to await the final result, but reckoning with all contingencies, one would better start to prepare a plan B, if one wants at least some funding this year, comparable to that of 2012.

Aeneas
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Aeneas » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:54 am

You know, one can pledge 20K without a problem now. Why? Because you do not have to pay if they do not reach ANOTHER 80K. - I would be SERIOUSLY impressed, though, if someone were to DONATE these 20K in REALITY, maybe even concluding a contract for the implementation of a feature of his choice.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:24 pm

Aeneas wrote:You know, one can pledge 20K without a problem now. Why? Because you do not have to pay if they do not reach ANOTHER 80K. - I would be SERIOUSLY impressed, though, if someone were to DONATE these 20K in REALITY, maybe even concluding a contract for the implementation of a feature of his choice.
I've been thinking the same, though if such a pledge is done without being done in earnest, it's always a risk. One would have to be a fool or a gambler just to gift 20000 to show off and then gamble it won't reach the milestone anyway (or you DO lose that money). If another 3-4 think the same, and take the same risk, one would actually get there. ;-)

In any case, I would suggest to the devs if/when Kickstarter doesn't pan out, to raise the donationbar again (which was fairly successful). And to rethink things for another campaign on kickstarter next year, regard this as a learning experience, and try to do better next year (though I would suggest taking another way than one has done now, as I've already explained in previous posts).

janl
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by janl » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:44 pm

What about making pressure on politicians. Slovakian goverment pays Microsoft 52 milion (10^6) Euro for 3 years. Slovakia is small country (about 5 milion population). 20 countries (perheps only from EU, or Russia, China, Indonezia, India, Pakistan, ...) pays 5 000 euro and http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tho ... ud-desktop has finance for creative work on Reactos. As I previously mentioned election in EU parliament draws near - a opportunity to make pressure on politicians.

helsinkiharbour
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by helsinkiharbour » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:47 pm

janl wrote:What about making pressure on politicians. Slovakian goverment pays Microsoft 52 milion (10^6) Euro for 3 years. Slovakia is small country (about 5 milion population). 20 countries (perheps only from EU, or Russia, China, Indonezia, India, Pakistan, ...) pays 5 000 euro and http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tho ... ud-desktop has finance for creative work on Reactos. As I previously mentioned election in EU parliament draws near - a opportunity to make pressure on politicians.
Yeah, everyone should forward this campaign to his local politicians... sometimes they are under pressure to show some activity in the digital domain... that could be sold to them as chance for that ! ;)

Aeneas
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Aeneas » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:48 pm

You're kidding me. OK, let me tell you something: "the Windows license is for free" - practically speaking.

Why? Because Windows costs you some 100 - 200 EUR. One-shot, for several years. If you compute the "per day"-costs of Windows, it is absolutely negligible. I bet they spend more on sugar for the coffee machine.

What DOES matter is the costs of support. This is what ACTUALLY matters when large organisations switch to Linux (city of Munich are some 12k PCs, there are also quite some jobs bound to this). If a company switches to Linux, the reason is pretty much always "technical", and if a state does so, it is mostly "for showing off", plus creating some jobs, and independence and security reasons. But nobody does it due to "fear of the Windows license costs".

Therefore, for all practical purposes, ReactOS is actually WAY MORE expensive than Windows. The license is for free, but the system is too unreliable and too unmanagable to actually use in any large-scale setting. - Now, the same could be said about Linux at one point, so hope is not to be given up. But to say, "ReactOS is cheaper" is ludicrous. - You MAY say, "one day ReactOS will make you independent", but that is an entirely different story.

Also, do not let yourself be fooled by numbers. 20-30 Mio EUR? They won't even notice it, everyone is feeding banks with the thousandfold amounts in order to keep the economy up. "Exercisigin pressure" on anyone for that amount simply won't work. Noone is going to give you even 10 EUR unless you tell them what for. Being paid for something usually results in what is called a "synallagmatic relationship": quid pro quo.

dizt3mp3r
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by dizt3mp3r » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:44 pm

You are missing the point entirely. I have several machines that I would love to have host an open version of Windows. At the moment, to have the equivalent of Windows professional on the five machines I have available to me, would cost me a small fortune for the upgrade. The laptops/desktops here came with various flavours of windows, XP home, XP Pro, Vista Home Premium &c. The non-pro systems are all limited to a certain degree (no NFS support &c) and have problems networking together (the usual NT5/NT6 inability to connect to NT6 shares). I would love to be able to boot ReactOS in a separate partition to allow me to run the same O/S on all systems, with full NT5 compatibility allowing me to retain the investment in my software, whilst being able to boot the old Redmond O/S from time to time to test compatibility for all the programs I develop.

Over the lifetime of all my devices, ReactOS would save me a fortune, especially when I can specify ReactOS for all my clients and avoid retraining them and myself.

I have linux and Android devices that if they could be dual-booted to ReactOS might extend the reach of my software.

Windows is NOT free and it is also a pain in the ar5e.

dizt3mp3r
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by dizt3mp3r » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:53 pm

To the team: Don't be disheartened that the kickstarter failed to reach its goal of 120,000. It did reach a goodly amount (even if some of that was a bit dodgy). You now know what sort of financing the community can support, in the region of 20-30,000. Not bad at all.

Instead of having a product like Thorium that needs to be financed in one chunk, my suggestion would be to have multiple targets - giving a price to each attainable goal. Of course you need to define a goal for identifiable items such as USB support, Windows shell completion or something similar. Set a realistic target and then ask for funding to achieve it.

I think that the attempt to attain 120,000 was a noble one but that target was just too high for the community to sustain.

Also, next time - please do a lot and I mean a lot more advertising BEFORE you run the next Kickstarter. This world is ALL about advertising and marketing and although I saw improvements in this during the campaign, the proper time to raise awareness was before the campaign started.

Webunny
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Re: Thorium (ROS distribution) on kickstarter

Post by Webunny » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:05 pm

dizt3mp3r wrote:To the team: Don't be disheartened that the kickstarter failed to reach its goal of 120,000. It did reach a goodly amount (even if some of that was a bit dodgy). You now know what sort of financing the community can support, in the region of 20-30,000. Not bad at all.

Instead of having a product like Thorium that needs to be financed in one chunk, my suggestion would be to have multiple targets - giving a price to each attainable goal. Of course you need to define a goal for identifiable items such as USB support, Windows shell completion or something similar. Set a realistic target and then ask for funding to achieve it.

I think that the attempt to attain 120,000 was a noble one but that target was just too high for the community to sustain.

Also, next time - please do a lot and I mean a lot more advertising BEFORE you run the next Kickstarter. This world is ALL about advertising and marketing and although I saw improvements in this during the campaign, the proper time to raise awareness was before the campaign started.
That's about the gist I said here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13082#p106593

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