Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

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Black_Fox
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Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by Black_Fox »

There are still people coming to the forum, posting 90% useless pictures of their BSODs, lately also photos of their screens. Seeing that this (small backtrace upon BSOD) initiative failed, and since realHW testers may not easily produce a backtrace on their own, I suggest a new, smaller and easier idea:

Somewhere to the end of the BSOD there could be a sentence added, reading along the lines of "If you want to provide more info to the developer, restart ReactOS with Debug (Screen) option and reproduce this issue". Because that's what we'll tell RealHW testers anyway (see here).

P.S. I understand that Microsoft doesn't do that, but they also won't fix ROS's bugs ;)
mametoc
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by mametoc »

This might be result obvious heaviness for the experienced user.

Anyway the forum is not the place for bug reports, but http://jira.reactos.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa
DOSGuy
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by DOSGuy »

The basic idea is good, regardless of the correct venue to post bug reports. The standard BSOD screen produces virtually no useful information. Instead of people posting those useless details only to be told that they need to do something else to produce a useful log, why not just produce a useful log (or have an option to produce one) in the first place? At this stage of development, all ROS "users" are testers. The default boot option -- at least for the daily builds -- should be to produce (or offer to produce) a useful log that can be used to produce a bug report.
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mametoc
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by mametoc »

No, in general terms post bug reports in the forum is a not recommended idea it was talked sometimes.

About BSOD, I don't think is too simple, even if you reboot or press any key into BSDO to see the debug (screen) -my experience- a developer can ask to type "bt" then press enter into debug (screen) to see other related debug contents, but i don't know if "bt" is needed only sometimes, and who know if exists some more commands what a developer can ask to type in debug (screen). According whit the ReactOS page infos the best way to get full useful debug logs is whit two PCs connecteds whit serial cable and an app called puffy or something, i want do this but... space room problems.

And a use whitout bug reports i might not be considered necesarily a test.
Webunny
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by Webunny »

Black_Fox wrote:There are still people coming to the forum, posting 90% useless pictures of their BSODs, lately also photos of their screens. Seeing that this (small backtrace upon BSOD) initiative failed, and since realHW testers may not easily produce a backtrace on their own, I suggest a new, smaller and easier idea:

Somewhere to the end of the BSOD there could be a sentence added, reading along the lines of "If you want to provide more info to the developer, restart ReactOS with Debug (Screen) option and reproduce this issue". Because that's what we'll tell RealHW testers anyway (see here).

P.S. I understand that Microsoft doesn't do that, but they also won't fix ROS's bugs ;)

Look, I don't know If you mean me specifically, but since you posted a picture of my screen I assume you are aware of my testing.

I don't know how many times I must repeat this:

1)It's a regression only noticeable when HW-testing; it remains UNDETECTED when testing in VM.
2)I CAN NOT get any decent debug-info from the debug screen mode because there IS NOTHING to be shown. I already said it was blank. People keep asking and asking me for that but the ONLY thing I get in that mode is this: http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 15#p105043
3)I DO NOT have a serial cable (as said many times too), therefore I can not provide debug info that way.
4)After much effort and time, I managed to swap my HD's after I made a debug log mode with bt (tracking). When I managed to get the debug log file out of there, I posted it here: http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 15#p105050 Theflash and others have analysed it: it has NO KD and BT DID NOT work

Thus: it completely freezes, and it's doubtful even a serial cable would help.

In conclusion: those 'shabby pictures' and manual typing of bsods are the ONLY thing that's left, together with my painstakingly narrowing down the build that causes the regression by burning builds on a CD two dozen times and constantly re-installing and running them on the PC.

I'm getting a bit fed up with all the looking down on my efforts; I've been busy testing for 3 days and did the best I could given the circumstances. I think I've put FAR more effort in it then any casual tester would who runs the occasional BT on a VM. There is no need to act as if I'm not understanding that coders want the debug screen or log; alas THERE IS NONE POSSIBLE. It's all fine that that is what 'we' tell testers, but maybe the 'coders' should read up on what is said too, and try to understand the circumstances.

I would say: it's better to have that 10% than 0%. And it's better to know one has discovered a thusfar UNKNOWN regression that has been narrowed down to a specific build and a probably cause, EVEN if one does not have the exact line yet, then nothing at all. I would hardly call that worthless, as some have done.
Last edited by Webunny on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Black_Fox
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by Black_Fox »

mametoc wrote:This might be result obvious heaviness for the experienced user.
The experienced user can read the rest of BSOD which would stay as it is.
mametoc wrote:Anyway the forum is not the place for bug reports, but http://jira.reactos.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa
DOSguy wrote:the correct venue to post bug reports.
This is an idea, only rehashing of which can be submitted as a feature/enhancement request to JIRA. I have no interest in having the JIRA issue resolved as invalid. A few of the ROS developers declined the previous idea because there is already existing guide how to debug in wiki.
Webunny wrote:I don't know If you mean me specifically, but since you posted a picture of my screen I assume you are aware of my testing.
I didn't mean specifically you, I just used the screen as an example, sorry for that :) I didn't mean that testers are incompetent in giving developers info -> I meant that the current BSOD is stupid and useless and there is no info you could give the developers to help them -> I want to change that. So, I want to help realHW testers (and the unexperienced VM testers too).
DOSGuy
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by DOSGuy »

Exactly. The current BSOD is what users should see when ROS is ready for everyday use. The default boot option during alpha (and probably beta) testing should be to produce a useful log. There's a never-ending stream of well-meaning testers who post (in the forum or on JIRA) a screenshot of the BSOD they received during testing, which necessitates a series of instructions about how to produce a useful log for the devs. It's a waste of everyone's time, and it can confuse or embarrass the tester. Every time that happens, we potentially lose them as a tester and supporter of the project.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free BeOS, DOS, OS/2, and Windows games at RGB Classic Games.
bernarddt
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by bernarddt »

I just want to give my support as well!

If the developers can get volumes of testing stats, even if the original "try-it-out" user wasn't planning on testing so that he can give feedback, this may still give viable information out. Then potentially the developers can see trends of what bugs are the most common/most useful to fix. If a developer concentrates on getting a specific module 100%, he can look out for any logs which point to his module.

I myself has never done any debug tracing and log generating. I always think: "One day I will". But if it was a matter of clicking an upload button, I would have done it a lot of times.

This make me think of the Windows dialog: "Your system has recovered from a serious error". That allows you to report the error to Microsoft. (Or I'm mixing my thoughts now!). Maybe something similar can also be done as an alternative to the BSOD suggestion here. Or both.
Webunny
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Re: Idea: Ask in BSOD to run Debug (Screen)

Post by Webunny »

Black_Fox wrote:
mametoc wrote:This might be result obvious heaviness for the experienced user.
The experienced user can read the rest of BSOD which would stay as it is.
mametoc wrote:Anyway the forum is not the place for bug reports, but http://jira.reactos.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa
DOSguy wrote:the correct venue to post bug reports.
This is an idea, only rehashing of which can be submitted as a feature/enhancement request to JIRA. I have no interest in having the JIRA issue resolved as invalid. A few of the ROS developers declined the previous idea because there is already existing guide how to debug in wiki.
Webunny wrote:I don't know If you mean me specifically, but since you posted a picture of my screen I assume you are aware of my testing.
I didn't mean specifically you, I just used the screen as an example, sorry for that :) I didn't mean that testers are incompetent in giving developers info -> I meant that the current BSOD is stupid and useless and there is no info you could give the developers to help them -> I want to change that. So, I want to help realHW testers (and the unexperienced VM testers too).
Yeah, sorry, I was still somewhat pissed of by some less pleasant reaction I got on irc yesterday (though there are many friendly and helpful coders there too), so I was a bit touchy.

Obviously, I'm all for a more elaborate and useful bsod info-screen too. In fact, in my/this particular case, that would be about the only thing right now that *would* shed some light and deeper insight into the problem.
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