YouTube Nonprofit Program

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ArmyMan007
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by ArmyMan007 »

Webunny, you should really try to be more polite to people. I'm reading the thread that I have created in order to promote a topic, and it feels as if I'm a floating ghost who is irrelevant to this topic. If you could stop referring to me in the 3rd person, I would deeply appreciate it.

Furthermore, the PR idea is a long and tiring topic. I myself have tried to promote the topic in more then one thread and I really wanted to join the PR team, but the devs themselves never wanted anyone w/o technological knowledge to join the PR team. That was (and still is) THE ONLY REASON why this team was never established. Seeing most of my posts I fully support the project and am hoping for the project to sore to public awareness, and these ideas, while futile and maybe helpless, are necessary for this project.

The only reason I bring this topic to these forums is because I can't, apparently, work for the promotion without the consent of the ROS team. So, no promotion = no funds. And I believe we need these funds.
ReactOS - Open Your Windows to Freedom
Webunny
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by Webunny »

ArmyMan007 wrote:Webunny, you should really try to be more polite to people. I'm reading the thread that I have created in order to promote a topic, and it feels as if I'm a floating ghost who is irrelevant to this topic. If you could stop referring to me in the 3rd person, I would deeply appreciate it.

Furthermore, the PR idea is a long and tiring topic. I myself have tried to promote the topic in more then one thread and I really wanted to join the PR team, but the devs themselves never wanted anyone w/o technological knowledge to join the PR team. That was (and still is) THE ONLY REASON why this team was never established. Seeing most of my posts I fully support the project and am hoping for the project to sore to public awareness, and these ideas, while futile and maybe helpless, are necessary for this project.

The only reason I bring this topic to these forums is because I can't, apparently, work for the promotion without the consent of the ROS team. So, no promotion = no funds. And I believe we need these funds.
I referred to you in third person, because I started my post in response to another poster first, who didn't really addressed you directly neither. So in effect, you *were* a 'third person' in the context of my response to that other poster. It has nothing to do with being impolite or not - at least not more than by placing 'bump' in the thread several times to 'bump' it up, imho.

While I understand your plight, it really is no use bumping a thread constantly by placing 'bump' in it. That's not going to help with the devs, on the contrary; surely you realise that? For the rest I largely agree with you about the...let's say 'reluctancy' of the dev team to actually let anyone try out something new (as a side-project). It never amounts to anything in that respect. They hardly accept any proposals in these matters, but they also don't do anything with it themselves. It's rather unfortunate, but that's the way it is, apparently.

For instance; I offered to translate the website in Dutch, but apparently I'm not good enough for it as long as I don't give a not-further-explained token. But really; what is there to loose, anyway? I either do it, or I don't (or not good enough). In either case, they could set me on a 'probation period' to see how it goes, and revoke my translation-rights if it's unsatisfactory. It's not that they *risk* anything. As said, it always feels like an uphill battle when one is, in effect, offering help. It's like a reverse world. In an analogy, it would be akin to having to pay a person for being allowed to help that same person.

I do understand where it's coming from, though. The devs probably are very focussed - when dealing with eachother - from the viewpoint and the concept of a meritocracy. Which is understandable: too much bagger and your code gets messed up. So you basically get more to say, the more (good) code you actually produced, and the conditions to join in the coding is understandable strict. On itself, I think this is a wise thing to do. Only...they take that same principle, and apply it much too strict even to things that have nothing to do with the coding, and are totally non-critical, like many of the side-projects that are proposed here. While there is far less risk involved, and you actually *could* let someone give it a try without much adverse consequences, they still want to tightly control everything, as if it's a critical component like with the code. But the fact of the matter is, some are potential useful ideas that *could* work or help, but if you place the same amount of 'scrutiny' to volunteers of side-projects as for developers of the core-coding, you'll never have people which can or will do it (or, more correctly: who are allowed to do it), and those projects simply *won't* happen. Which is the case, and which is why very little of any side-projects ever come to fruition.


But anyway, even this has been said in some form or another many times by now, and it didn't change the mentality, and it won't change it now neither. I'm used with dealing with unmovable bureaucracies; in some respect, ROS has many elements of that too. It's nigh impossible to actually change a given system or mindset once it has established and encroached itself so deeply. If *I* were dealing with PR, for instance, I would say to you: ok, go ahead, and make something, and when it's finished, show it to us and if we like it, you can proceed with publishing it on that non-profit youtube-program. That's how I would deal with things. Same with people offering translations: I would give people offering help in that regard a chance. If, after a month, they still hadn't done anything, I would simply revoke their rights. You can't really expect non-coder volunteers to be hold to the same standards as core development coders, imho. But that's me. ROS, as a whole, has a far more restricting 'closed-up' mentality in this regard. Maybe it's because they got disillusioned by many people saying they would do something that ultimately didn't turn out the way it was promised...but than again, if one isn't doing it themselves, it wouldn't/will not happen neither anyway. There is little harm in letting people help, even if some of it turns out to be unsuccessful.
Last edited by Webunny on Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ArmyMan007
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by ArmyMan007 »

Webunny, +1. For everything. EPIC WIN! :D

I think you expressed everything I believed regarding the entire "volunteer projects". I wish we could get a response from the ROS team...
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bernarddt
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by bernarddt »

This is very funny! Do you guys realise how many times this "off-topic topic" has come up? There are so many "non-devs" that are unhappy about the PR of the project.

We should really start a "fan-site" with a new crew that can really just promote ROS. This will indirectly help "users" engage with other "users" and not "users" to "devs" since that is understandably a problem because they don't have time, basically a site where the source is not the center of discussions but rather the future of "Version 1".

Even I and PurpleGurl discussed a subset of this topic just look for the "More News!" topic here: http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12897

Anyhow kudos to you all!
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gonzoMD
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by gonzoMD »

bernarddt wrote:This is very funny! Do you guys realise how many times this "off-topic topic" has come up? There are so many "non-devs" that are unhappy about the PR of the project.

We should really start a "fan-site" with a new crew that can really just promote ROS. This will indirectly help "users" engage with other "users" and not "users" to "devs" since that is understandably a problem because they don't have time, basically a site where the source is not the center of discussions but rather the future of "Version 1".

Even I and PurpleGurl discussed a subset of this topic just look for the "More News!" topic here: http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12897

Anyhow kudos to you all!
my Experience is that fan sites get trolled. It seems that the team/community doesn't really want fan sites. :(
bernarddt
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by bernarddt »

gonzoMD wrote: my Experience is that fan sites get trolled. It seems that the team/community doesn't really want fan sites. :(
Oh boy. What else can we do?
DOSGuy
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by DOSGuy »

Webunny wrote:If *I* were dealing with PR, for instance, I would say to you: ok, go ahead, and make something, and when it's finished, show it to us and if we like it, you can proceed with publishing it on that non-profit youtube-program. That's how I would deal with things. Same with people offering translations: I would give people offering help in that regard a chance. If, after a month, they still hadn't done anything, I would simply revoke their rights. You can't really expect non-coder volunteers to be hold to the same standards as core development coders, imho. But that's me. ROS, as a whole, has a far more restricting 'closed-up' mentality in this regard. Maybe it's because they got disillusioned by many people saying they would do something that ultimately didn't turn out the way it was promised...but than again, if one isn't doing it themselves, it wouldn't/will not happen neither anyway. There is little harm in letting people help, even if some of it turns out to be unsuccessful.
That's a pretty good summary. When there was a call for volunteers for the PR team, a number of people (myself included) jumped at the chance to help spread the word about ReactOS. At least, that's what we assumed a PR team would do. (How silly of us.) We proposed that we would come up with promotion ideas which the dev team could approve or reject. The devs responsible for the PR team wanted to assign the PR team's tasks, and no one was willing or able to perform those tasks, so there's no PR team. I lack all but the most basic understanding of how ReactOS works, which was an absolute requirement so that the PR team could take over publishing the newsletter and answer technical questions about the project. As you said, you can't really expect non-coder volunteers to be held to the same standard as core developers, and yet they do. Merely getting people's attention and directing them to forums where such questions could be answered wasn't good enough. You can't evangelize the project unless you can explain it to an expert. "Hey, you have a plan that could lead a million people to become aware of the project? That's great. Now, are you able to explain how the kernel works if anyone asks? Never mind then."

Like it or lump it, the dev team is not interested in any unsolicited offers to help the project. You have to help them their way or not at all. So I agree with bernarddt's proposal. Create ReactOS fan pages and spread the word without the dev team's permission. As long as you don't claim to speak on behalf of the project, they can't stop you. There seems to be an absolute, crippling fear that if any non-developer talks about the project and makes a mistake, a team of Microsoft lawyers will sue them into oblivion, or negative publicity will cause everyone on the development team to spontaneously combust. Try not to talk about things you don't understand. Just advertise that ReactOS exists and state its published goals, and direct them to the website for more information. Everyone who learns about the project is a potential future dev or financial donor. Anyone who doesn't become a developer or donor doesn't hurt the project. Spreading the word can only be good for ReactOS.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.
jimtabor
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by jimtabor »

DOSGuy wrote:Like it or lump it, the dev team is not interested in any unsolicited offers to help the project. You have to help them their way or not at all. So I agree with bernarddt's proposal. Create ReactOS fan pages and spread the word without the dev team's permission. As long as you don't claim to speak on behalf of the project, they can't stop you. There seems to be an absolute, crippling fear that if any non-developer talks about the project and makes a mistake, a team of Microsoft lawyers will sue them into oblivion, or negative publicity will cause everyone on the development team to spontaneously combust. Try not to talk about things you don't understand. Just advertise that ReactOS exists and state its published goals, and direct them to the website for more information. Everyone who learns about the project is a potential future dev or financial donor. Anyone who doesn't become a developer or donor doesn't hurt the project. Spreading the word can only be good for ReactOS.
Yes do that, start a Fandom page. Did not know it was a bunch of old women running ReactOS. Nothing worse than a sewing circle.
Webunny
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by Webunny »

jimtabor wrote:
DOSGuy wrote:Like it or lump it, the dev team is not interested in any unsolicited offers to help the project. You have to help them their way or not at all. So I agree with bernarddt's proposal. Create ReactOS fan pages and spread the word without the dev team's permission. As long as you don't claim to speak on behalf of the project, they can't stop you. There seems to be an absolute, crippling fear that if any non-developer talks about the project and makes a mistake, a team of Microsoft lawyers will sue them into oblivion, or negative publicity will cause everyone on the development team to spontaneously combust. Try not to talk about things you don't understand. Just advertise that ReactOS exists and state its published goals, and direct them to the website for more information. Everyone who learns about the project is a potential future dev or financial donor. Anyone who doesn't become a developer or donor doesn't hurt the project. Spreading the word can only be good for ReactOS.
Yes do that, start a Fandom page. Did not know it was a bunch of old women running ReactOS. Nothing worse than a sewing circle.
I wouldn't exactly describe it like that. I think the dev team is doing an admirable job, to some extend. They are terrific in the context of creating code. Alas, they are far less good at maximising the potential for anything non-coding related. They should just lighten up a little, and let non-coders do their thing, EVEN if there is a possibility it doesn't pan out. Basically, they have nothing - or at least very little - to loose. The tendency of always wanting to be in control of really everything even remotely associated with ROS is killing any voluntary initiative, and I don't even think they realise that themselves.
jimtabor
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by jimtabor »

There is an IRC to talk about PR issues... #reactos-pr so ~ okay...
ArmyMan007
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by ArmyMan007 »

jimtabor wrote:There is an IRC to talk about PR issues... #reactos-pr so ~ okay...
Since when does ROS have a PR IRC channel? This is the first time I ever hear about this, and I've been wanting to help out the ROS project from the PR point of view...

This is exactly what I'm talking about for a long time, and both Webunny and DosGuy supporting my claim. Non of these ideas or channels are relevant since non of the team SHARES this information with the community. Everything that's related to PR has nothing to do with the non-coder community, since for the ROS team, PR=code. I think a change is in order, where a fansite should be established or re-open the old unofficial Facebook page. Have a Kickstarter / Indigogo project of our own to grow awareness (much like Ubuntu's tactic: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge - they failed raising the money but grew much attention and awareness). Present the project to world leaders. Anything is possible and should be done, in my opinion, with the consent of the COMUNNITY, not the Devs, as long as the community doesn't speak on behalf of the project but only promotes it.

There are a lot of things that could be helpful to the project, but all we need is to form this "fan community" in order to get things started.
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Webunny
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by Webunny »

ArmyMan007 wrote:
jimtabor wrote:There is an IRC to talk about PR issues... #reactos-pr so ~ okay...
Since when does ROS have a PR IRC channel? This is the first time I ever hear about this, and I've been wanting to help out the ROS project from the PR point of view...

This is exactly what I'm talking about for a long time, and both Webunny and DosGuy supporting my claim. Non of these ideas or channels are relevant since non of the team SHARES this information with the community. Everything that's related to PR has nothing to do with the non-coder community, since for the ROS team, PR=code. I think a change is in order, where a fansite should be established or re-open the old unofficial Facebook page. Have a Kickstarter / Indigogo project of our own to grow awareness (much like Ubuntu's tactic: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge - they failed raising the money but grew much attention and awareness). Present the project to world leaders. Anything is possible and should be done, in my opinion, with the consent of the COMUNNITY, not the Devs, as long as the community doesn't speak on behalf of the project but only promotes it.

There are a lot of things that could be helpful to the project, but all we need is to form this "fan community" in order to get things started.
I don't know...to be honest, I'm not too much in favour of a 'fan-site-only' approach. It wouldn't really help with any of the side-projects, since, the moment one actually wants to go ahead with it, you'd still need to come back here and ask if they're fine with it. I think it would better if we just could engage the coders more and try to get them loose up a bit in regard to non-coders/people in general who have some ideas. If they could be convinced of being a bit more tolerant and lenient towards people who want to help in other ways that lay outside core-coding (notably PR and side-projects) it would already go a long way...
DOSGuy
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by DOSGuy »

jimtabor wrote:There is an IRC to talk about PR issues... #reactos-pr so ~ okay...
Holy crap, there's an IRC channel for PR??? Why was this never mentioned to any of the people who volunteered to join the PR team? Good initiative to whoever created it. Step 2: let someone know that it exists.

Maybe it could be added to http://www.reactos.org/community/irc. It lists the main channel and the channels for testers, devs, rosbe, the website, German, French, Italian, Polish, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, and Korean. Are there any other secret channels that should be added to this page?

[edit] Woohoo! Just connected, and I see AmineKhaldi and jimtabor.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.
Webunny
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:
jimtabor wrote:There is an IRC to talk about PR issues... #reactos-pr so ~ okay...
Holy crap, there's an IRC channel for PR??? Why was this never mentioned to any of the people who volunteered to join the PR team? Good initiative to whoever created it. Step 2: let someone know that it exists.

Maybe it could be added to http://www.reactos.org/community/irc. It lists the main channel and the channels for testers, devs, rosbe, the website, German, French, Italian, Polish, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, and Korean. Are there any other secret channels that should be added to this page?

[edit] Woohoo! Just connected, and I see AmineKhaldi and jimtabor.
Hmpffft! Been ages since I used mirc. This whole irc thing is a bit of an outdated technology, is it not? Maybe the devs should implement something else. Or at least give a webinterface to it.
DOSGuy
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Re: YouTube Nonprofit Program

Post by DOSGuy »

There are plenty of IRC web interfaces. I logged on using one.

And for the record, I meant no disrespect to jimtabor or anyone else on the development team. I have a deadpan sense of humor, and the PR situation happens to be a comedy goldmine.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.
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