Using linux drivers in reactos !

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Aeneas
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Aeneas »

EmuandCo, don't get me wrong, I am deeply impressed with what you have done, because you have NOT, ultimately, "copied the Lion's book & checked out Tanenbaum" (as is possible with Unixoids). You are faced by a super-secluded large software company that will do absolutely NOTHING to help you get a clean room reverse engineered Windows.

The question I am asking is how do you PRACTICALLY imagine that YOUR marvellous creation arrives at OTHER people's computers within 5 years or so. It may be not 5 years but 6.5 years, however, everything beyond 2020 will cause ridicule. So... "what's the plan"? :)

Z98
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Z98 »

You are trying to find a solution to a situation that ReactOS is not yet ready for. You are eager to try and get ROS into the hands of people who are not at the minimum power users or sys admins. An admirable goal, but again, ReactOS is just not ready. Even on a controlled platform like a VM, you are going to suffer from crashes due to memory corruption and the like, and many applications still do not run or run only with very visible glitches. The system is considerably more stable than it was at the time of the 0.3.0 release and often gives the illusion of being able to be used for everyday browsing. It is not ready for any kind of market penetration and to attempt it would be premature and potentially harmful in the long term. After all, if people's first encounter with ReactOS is with an unstable platform (which it will be, regardless of whether you use it on real hardware or a VM), it poisons them to the project for the future.

We already consider virtual machines a perfectly acceptable method of experiencing ReactOS. After all, we provide packages for VMWare, VBox, and QEMU as part of every release.

DOSGuy
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by DOSGuy »

I'm sorry, but I'm just baffled by why this conversation is continuing. There are Windows drivers for almost everything, so why bother trying to support Windows and Linux drivers when just supporting Windows drivers would probably be good enough? Sure, more is better, but more is also harder. If I was going to fundamentally rewrite my operating system to support a second system's drivers, there would have to be a significant benefit to doing so.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

Z98
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Z98 »

As an aside, the developers' interest in ReactOS stems from it being an implementation of NT. The end result that we ultimately want to get out is an NT operating system. There is no shortcut to this goal. The only way development would speed up is with more developers who are actually familiar with the NT architecture. That list of former and current developers? Many of them are people that this project effectively trained to become NT developers.

fred02
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by fred02 »

DOSGuy wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm just baffled by why this conversation is continuing. There are Windows drivers for almost everything, so why bother trying to support Windows and Linux drivers when just supporting Windows drivers would probably be good enough?
Ah, my thoughts exactly. I also wonder what can be this Linux driver that both: does not exist for Windows and will be so helpful to the ROS "market penetration" :?:

PascalDragon
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by PascalDragon »

Z98 wrote:Any approach that tries to shove in a Linux hardware stack instead of just drivers themselves would require essentially a rewrite of the kernel and reducing compatibility with Windows drivers. We are never going down that route.
And this is what I doubt. And when I have the time (approximately starting from autumn when I'm finished with university) I will prove it. The base for this is the so called DDEkit which is used by different microkernel operating systems like L4 and Minix 3 to support Linux drivers. And the normal driver environments of these systems are different enough to show that it's possible. And again: I don't want to do this to avoid the need to use existing Windows drivers, but to provide an alternative when none exists (e.g. older hardware on x86_64 and basically any hardware on ARM).

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Sven
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EmuandCo
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by EmuandCo »

If you manage to persuade Linux drivers to run on NT based systems like ROS, I will spread everywhere that youre right. I doubt it, but feel free to try. We had several discussions about existing Linux components and if its a good idea to port them for ROS and every time the conclusion was, its easier to rewrite most of it than port it.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Z98
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Z98 »

The ability to run Linux drivers on L4 is a demonstration that it is possible to run Linux drivers on Unix-like OSes, which the BSDs already proved. Unix-like OSes tend to apply a certain philosophical approach when it comes to organizing resources, resulting in similar presentations of resources. This makes the mapping between system interfaces much more intuitive and obvious. The L4 architecture also makes the work easier due to the way they already isolated resource access. This means the L4 architecture is inherently better suited to such extensions than NT. It is still not trivial, but with the isolation of resources already done for you, there is considerably lesser risk of drivers mucking up system resources.

PascalDragon
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by PascalDragon »

After my studies I'll start working at a company that has developed their own microkernel that is definitely different from Unix. I've already had different occasions during my studies to play around with it.
One of the tasks I'll be doing then is to add support for Linux drivers as well (because unlike ReactOS they don't have the possibility to just use Windows drivers). So I'll get a first hand experience to add Linux driver support to a foreign environment and this knowledge I can then apply to ReactOS.

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Sven
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Black_Fox
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Black_Fox »

PascalDragon wrote:So I'll get a first hand experience to add Linux driver support to a foreign environment and this knowledge I can then apply to ReactOS.
I'm very skeptical, but intrigued nonetheless. Good luck!

alexei
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by alexei »

What I see is an extremely naive interpretation of the micro-kernel architecture. The security benefits you speak of come at a considerable performance cost, something like 30% last time I read up on the topic. Operating systems seeking to use that model are generally designed to fit that model to begin with, not retroactively converted, because such conversions are generally infeasible because too many assumptions were made about shared resources being accessible. And this is assuming that the inter-system communication Windows drivers expect to be present are even possible in a micro-kernel environment. My instinct is pretty much a "maybe if we are damn lucky," but we're long past the point of trying such an experiment. What you propose would require a rewrite of at minimum the entire kernel, if not also the entire user land. We're not going to drop 15 years of work to chase an idea that may not even be possible.
Not at all. I proposed to run whole ROS and whole Linux (both almost unchanged) on the same computer in a way they would use separate sets of hardware resources, i.e. be effectively invisible to each other (communicate only to provide device virtualization). Implementation would be rather simple on a two-core CPU (one core per OS). On a single core CPU it would be harder to implement, though.
For example http://www.acontis.com/eng/products/win ... /index.php uses simple hypervisor on unchanged XP, which probably can be avoided, as in ROS you can hide all resources given to Linux.
However, it seems ROS kernel is not stable enough anyway, so it would be no actual benifits to ROS usability. :(

Z98
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by Z98 »

alexei wrote:
What I see is an extremely naive interpretation of the micro-kernel architecture. The security benefits you speak of come at a considerable performance cost, something like 30% last time I read up on the topic. Operating systems seeking to use that model are generally designed to fit that model to begin with, not retroactively converted, because such conversions are generally infeasible because too many assumptions were made about shared resources being accessible. And this is assuming that the inter-system communication Windows drivers expect to be present are even possible in a micro-kernel environment. My instinct is pretty much a "maybe if we are damn lucky," but we're long past the point of trying such an experiment. What you propose would require a rewrite of at minimum the entire kernel, if not also the entire user land. We're not going to drop 15 years of work to chase an idea that may not even be possible.
Not at all. I proposed to run whole ROS and whole Linux (both almost unchanged) on the same computer in a way they would use separate sets of hardware resources, i.e. be effectively invisible to each other (communicate only to provide device virtualization). Implementation would be rather simple on a two-core CPU (one core per OS). On a single core CPU it would be harder to implement, though.
For example http://www.acontis.com/eng/products/win ... /index.php uses simple hypervisor on unchanged XP, which probably can be avoided, as in ROS you can hide all resources given to Linux.
However, it seems ROS kernel is not stable enough anyway, so it would be no actual benifits to ROS usability. :(
You do understand that a hypervisor is a form of virtualization? Meaning an OS is still responsible for solely managing all of the resources the hypervisor gives it? And that a hypervisor does not facilitate direct communication between two OS instances?
PascalDragon wrote:After my studies I'll start working at a company that has developed their own microkernel that is definitely different from Unix. I've already had different occasions during my studies to play around with it.
One of the tasks I'll be doing then is to add support for Linux drivers as well (because unlike ReactOS they don't have the possibility to just use Windows drivers). So I'll get a first hand experience to add Linux driver support to a foreign environment and this knowledge I can then apply to ReactOS.
So are you stating that this OS does not attempt to implement the POSIX specification? As that would seem like a very strange choice for any new OS that is intended to be a commercial product.

PascalDragon
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Re: Using linux drivers in reactos !

Post by PascalDragon »

Z98 wrote:
PascalDragon wrote:After my studies I'll start working at a company that has developed their own microkernel that is definitely different from Unix. I've already had different occasions during my studies to play around with it.
One of the tasks I'll be doing then is to add support for Linux drivers as well (because unlike ReactOS they don't have the possibility to just use Windows drivers). So I'll get a first hand experience to add Linux driver support to a foreign environment and this knowledge I can then apply to ReactOS.
So are you stating that this OS does not attempt to implement the POSIX specification? As that would seem like a very strange choice for any new OS that is intended to be a commercial product.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. The normal OS is not based on POSIX, it is however possible to run POSIX applications, because of a usermode POSIX server (like NT's usermode subsystems). Also their OS API is C++ based (it uses object orientated programming rather much).

Regards,
Sven
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