ReactOS Fundraising 2012

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DukeNukemCZ
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by DukeNukemCZ »

Webunny wrote:Frankly, I find my logical assumption vindicated by the current reality. If I remember correctly, it was said the money-bar was raised only in May. At the end of May, it was at 4960 euro. Now, a month later, it's at 5808 euro. Ok, it may change a few hundred bucks of changes that still must be made, but the point is, it's 5 times lower than the first month. This is totally in line with what I said earlier, namely that the peak was in May, because everyone who was interested and was willing to donate, saw the bar, and already donated (at least, the vast majority did). The amount of money in June is probably due to those that give monthly and people only discovering it now. Of course, this is only a small fraction anymore, comparatively.

Equally logical, is the assumption it will rather be at the level of June in the next months than that of May. (probably even a bit less) Meaning, with another 6 months to go, we'll get between 10000 - 12000 euro at the end of the year. With an new release (3.15) and some extra PR-work, we maybe could get 15000 euro.

This, indeed, seems a far more realistic amount to strive for.

That said, it shouldn't stop us from finding additional potential ways of sponsoring, which is why I suggested the distribution/selling of the alpha Ros-CD's, where I'll take all the risks and Ros gets all the gains. ;)
yes i said that before, ROS community still isnt large enough to handle such sums, but at least now we know the limits :)

PR should now spread ROS across webzines, at least in my country is dead, long ago they informed from time to time about new versions of ROS but now its been while (almost 2 years), so they dont even informed about fundraising campaign.

phoenixkonsole
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by phoenixkonsole »

Hi guys,

today I decided to start a ReactOS distribution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpClvTagQc

I am already maintaining a AROS distribution called AROS Broadway
http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/1014 ... as-s17e07/

We are selling AROS compatible PC's (AROSstill lacks drivers - so offering fully compatible PC's is a good way to get some users)
Parts of the money we earn (basically everything which lands in my hands) goes back to AROS.
www.ares-shop.de www.vesalia.de

I would like to include ReactOS now too.

Is it possible to get a "Spendenquittung" ? : )

We have our own MediaCenter called AMC which will be updated.
I would like to support ReactOS in the way that AMC will work here too.

www.a-mc.biz

Best regards,
Pascal

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gonzoMD
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by gonzoMD »

Hey Pascal,

If you want to start such a "big" thing, you may take a look at/contact ReactOS Deutschland e.V.

Best regards
Robert

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Pesho
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Pesho »

So... Now that we've passed 6000, that 5000 euro limit seems a little silly, doesn't it? ;)

Webunny
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Webunny »

Pesho wrote:So... Now that we've passed 6000, that 5000 euro limit seems a little silly, doesn't it? ;)
I guess you're referring to someone else, because my rational estimate, as you can see on my former post, is between 10000 and 15000. This is, and always has been, the most realistic estimation. Even 15.000 will be a stretch, unless we really have some PR swing with the 3.15 and come in the newspapers/IT-magz and maybe a slashdot.

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Pesho
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Pesho »

You can take a look at the posts in the beginning of this thread. 10,000 - 15,000 does sound realistic, but the point is that even if we don't reach 30,000 it doesn't hurt to set the goal high. I'll still say that ROS is in the same category as Haiku, who have raised a very similar amount of money, and have set the same goal.

Webunny
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Webunny »

Pesho wrote:You can take a look at the posts in the beginning of this thread. 10,000 - 15,000 does sound realistic, but the point is that even if we don't reach 30,000 it doesn't hurt to set the goal high. I'll still say that ROS is in the same category as Haiku, who have raised a very similar amount of money, and have set the same goal.
Well, one can also look at the posts in the beginning as to why I disagree with this idea. ;) Whether it's in the same category as Haiku, financially speaking, is completely and fully up to the question whether we can raise the same amount. If we can not raise a similar amount, we are de facto not in the same league - obviously. Even in the best case, where no additional drive would be possible to reach an attainable goal (which I think there is: psychologically, people are prone to give something extra, if they see the endgoal is very near and almost reached), we're coming of rather silly or maybe even blasé by setting a goal that is triple the amount one can actually get. The principle of 'asking more than one will get doesn't hurt' is a spurious one, and everybody knows it to some degree. Why, else, not go directly for 100000 dollar or even 100 billion dollars? The reason is, because people have a sense that one should remain realistic, even with a money bar, and even if one is convinced asking for more doesn't hurt.

Now, if it turns out by the end of the year we only collected, say, 8000 euro, than clearly the 30000 isn't realistic neither. Thus, if you want to give an impression of being realists and not woolgatherers, one should adapt the total amount to more realistic proportions too.

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Pesho
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Pesho »

I get the impression that 30,000 is what's really needed to get things done though. Perhaps if there is a known "minimal amount" or "price per developer" it would be different. I'd like to know how many dev(s) we can afford with what we've collected so far.

Webunny
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Webunny »

Pesho wrote:I get the impression that 30,000 is what's really needed to get things done though. Perhaps if there is a known "minimal amount" or "price per developer" it would be different. I'd like to know how many dev(s) we can afford with what we've collected so far.
Would depend on what is meant by 'getting things done'. As I recall, some Russian dev here answered the Russian president when he asked how much Ros still needed to get finished, with "One million dollar' (or maybe it was rubel). Quite some more than 30000, thus.

But, as I and others have repeatedly said; there is very, very little info given as for what and to whom this money would go, for what purpose - other than it's to 'hire' as many devs as possible. But that's not a defined amount. The more money you get, the more you can hire, after all. So you could as well ask for a million, then. No-where is indicated that this is the amount to 'get it done'; it's just the amount I presume they thought as attainable, at the time. I seriously doubt(ed) that, and current progress of the bar seems to substantiate my prediction on this. And with a goal so far off, you won't get any psychological effect of 'We're almost there, just a little bit extra' which can provide an additional peak at the end, with goals that are almost attained.
Last edited by Webunny on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pesho
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Pesho »

Webunny wrote: Would depend on what is meant by 'getting things done'. As I recall, some russion dev here answered the Russian president when he asked how much Ros still needed to get finished, with "One million dollar' (or maybe it was roebel). Quite some more than 30000, thus.
No, that wasn't a dev, but a high school student who had the president visiting there. And the question was about how much ROS needed to be complete, not how much is needed for a full-time coding sprint. (It was euro, not dollars or rubles)
Webunny wrote:No-where is indicated that this is the amount to 'get it done'; it's just the amount I presume they thought as attainable, at the time.
That's kinda why i wanted to know what the going price per developer is, and for how long. I'm assuming nobody thought that far ahead when starting the campaign... Where is vicmarcal to provide the info when we need him ;)

Aeneas
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Aeneas »

http://www.gehalts-check.de/berufe/s/sy ... ierer.html

I am, of course, only guessing that this might be the relevant job description.

We therefore can conclude that you would need 45kEUR, or with other words, if you get really 30kEUR, you will be able to finance 2/3 of ONE German full-time professional.

1 Mio EUR is not unrealistic - it basically says you can finance 20-24 work years of a German professional, or in other words, say, 4 professionals for 5-6 years.

That's why I suggest you may consider going over the "prestige" and bounties for university students during their holidays rather than for a full-time-job. I can tell you that people will be ready to do a lot for 1000 EUR if you can convince them that it will be realistically useful for their future career, esp. in Eastern European countries. Having 6000 EUR, you can easily pick some 4-6 bounties for 1000 to 1500 EUR each, payable upon completion. I mean, this is not "Google's Summer of Code", but given how much nonsense there is in GSoC, this may be even more attractive; mentioning a GSoC project in your CV may be nice, but in itself does not warrant all that much.

It would be just great to advert people's attention to this opportunity.

Webunny
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Webunny »

Aeneas wrote:http://www.gehalts-check.de/berufe/s/sy ... ierer.html

I am, of course, only guessing that this might be the relevant job description.

We therefore can conclude that you would need 45kEUR, or with other words, if you get really 30kEUR, you will be able to finance 2/3 of ONE German full-time professional.

1 Mio EUR is not unrealistic - it basically says you can finance 20-24 work years of a German professional, or in other words, say, 4 professionals for 5-6 years.

That's why I suggest you may consider going over the "prestige" and bounties for university students during their holidays rather than for a full-time-job. I can tell you that people will be ready to do a lot for 1000 EUR if you can convince them that it will be realistically useful for their future career, esp. in Eastern European countries. Having 6000 EUR, you can easily pick some 4-6 bounties for 1000 to 1500 EUR each, payable upon completion. I mean, this is not "Google's Summer of Code", but given how much nonsense there is in GSoC, this may be even more attractive; mentioning a GSoC project in your CV may be nice, but in itself does not warrant all that much.

It would be just great to advert people's attention to this opportunity.
That's really hugely expensive compared to east-european devs, let alone from non-western countries. That said, just going cheap isn't everything, and I'd prefer one of the devs that already has some experience with Ros. But even then; I'm presuming they are willing to go under the normal payment; it IS only an open source project, after all, and presumably one of their pet projects.

Didn't Ros already tried a bounty system? It seemed not to work very well. Though that was a pay-for-getting-a-feature bounty-thing, if I recall correctly. And you seem to mean something else. On itself, it's not a bad idea to get students working on it, just like a GSoC of our own (a RoSoC? 8-) ). But the problem with continuity should be addressed too, and having students working on it for a few months and then disappearing...meh. Could be more straightforward than picking one of the devs, though, and the others nothing (unless they already decided who would get the job, but we don't know anything about it). But, indeed, students are cheaper, potentially useful in giving Ros a boost, and the devs can supervise them, and have already some experience with that (GSoC). If we can keep their interest going for every holiday/vacation for 2-3 years, it might be a viable alternative.

But of course, this is all speculation. It really would be nice if someone higher up the hierarchy would actually shed some more light on the whole raising-money to/for (?) thing.

Does anyone knows how things are handled with/on haiku, in detail?

Pesho wrote:
Webunny wrote: Would depend on what is meant by 'getting things done'. As I recall, some russion dev here answered the Russian president when he asked how much Ros still needed to get finished, with "One million dollar' (or maybe it was roebel). Quite some more than 30000, thus.
No, that wasn't a dev, but a high school student who had the president visiting there. And the question was about how much ROS needed to be complete, not how much is needed for a full-time coding sprint. (It was euro, not dollars or rubles)
A full-time coding sprint does nothing in guaranteeing that 'things will get done'. After all, Ros is done when it's done, meaning: finished. (Though in a sense it never will be, but at least the 1.0 version will be a milestone). Of course *some* things will presumably get done faster than they are now, if there are working devs on it full time, or others (like the students the other poster proposed) working on Ros too. But my point is, that's not a defined amount for a defined goal, as said.The more money you get, the more 'things get done', in the sense that you use it, so 30000 is really a random number. With 3000 one could get less 'things done' and with 300000, ten times more, etc.

Also, if, as the other poster said, it's only good for 2/3 of a West-based dev, and that is the plan for asking the 30000 (again, we don't know that, alas), with 10-12000 euro we're far under it, and even if a dev would leave his own work to work on Ros for 30000, I doubt he'll do it for less than half that amount. so if that was the plan, it should be revised, because we're not going to get there (I'm not being pessimistic or anything, just realistic). Maybe an alternative plan in the line of the 'hiring students' above, would be not a bad idea, in that case.
Webunny wrote:No-where is indicated that this is the amount to 'get it done'; it's just the amount I presume they thought as attainable, at the time.
That's kinda why i wanted to know what the going price per developer is, and for how long. I'm assuming nobody thought that far ahead when starting the campaign... Where is vicmarcal to provide the info when we need him ;)
I fully agree with that. There is just too little info on the matter. Even if they've not thought about all the details yet, they should have some broad ideas about what amount to spend on whom/what. Or what the varying ideas there are about it, like the 'hire-students' take.

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Black_Fox
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Black_Fox »

Aeneas wrote:We therefore can conclude that you would need 45kEUR, or with other words, if you get really 30kEUR, you will be able to finance 2/3 of ONE German full-time professional.
Currently ROS team consists of hobby-time professionals that work on this project for €0/month, so improvement is achieved by giving anything at all.

Aeneas
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Aeneas »

I, too, have said in another place that 6kEUR offer you certain possibilities that the LACK of 6kEUR does NOT. ;) - I particularly like the idea of "single contracts", i.e. where someone owes not his time, but his success. That may be especially true with regard to university students who would like to improve their CV while earning some money on an interesting project. (If the devs tell to someone, "if you implement for us an SSHd, we will give you 500 EUR", then the relations between pay and work are pretty clear, are they not?)

But the phantasies of "HOW MANY" developers you can hire for 30kEUR are simply unrealistic. (Not even to start talking about job security and career perspectives...)

Webunny
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Re: ReactOS Fundraising 2012

Post by Webunny »

Black_Fox wrote:
Aeneas wrote:We therefore can conclude that you would need 45kEUR, or with other words, if you get really 30kEUR, you will be able to finance 2/3 of ONE German full-time professional.
Currently ROS team consists of hobby-time professionals that work on this project for €0/month, so improvement is achieved by giving anything at all.
Not necessarily. No doubt it would be nice for (some) devs to have some pocket-money, but objectively/neutral speaking, in regard to the development of Ros, that doesn't help. It would only be usefull if we're paying *for the extra time* a dev spends on it, thus, if we would have enough to hire a dev half or full-time, so he could dedicate his time and focus on Ros, instead of as a pass-time/hobby alongside his main job. With the amount we're going to get - as it looks so far, at least - we won't be able to hire a dev from the West. No dev in the (West-)EU or VS is going to quite his job to work fulltime on Ros, for 12000 a year.

In that case, the money would be better spend in hiring east-euopean or third-world devs, who maybe WOULD work full time for that amount. Alternatively, as some have suggested, you could hire students, who could then earn something during summertime/vacations/hollidays and have something nice to put in their CV. Sort of our very own GSoC. With limited resources to our disposal, the question becomes how to spend it as efficiently as possible. That's also the reason z98 and other devs never tried the print-CD-project: why spend that money on printing CD's when you don't know for sure if you're getting it back, when it could as well be spend on the Ros development itself? Only if you have a fool, like me ;) , who is willing to bear all losses/risks and put his own money in it, does it become interesting. But I can understand that reasoning: efficiency is necessary, with limited resources to ones' disposal. And efficiency should be measured in regard to maximalising the development of Ros, nothing else.

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