Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

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Ancient
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Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by Ancient » Mon May 13, 2019 4:13 pm

Microsoft announced recently an upgrade to Windows, a full Linux system can be embedded with Windows including support for the ext4 file system. This is supposed to be fully open source (it may be available for import to ReactOS). This is referred to as WSL 2, and Microsoft claims it is not a traditional virtual machine. https://youtu.be/lwhMThePdIo?t=1330

This causes me to wonder if it wouldn't be better to develop ReactOS under a standard virtual machine as a construct with whatever open source Linux Windows is using. This could optimize comparability with Windows in the future, also offer a standard easier to boot easier to develop ReactOS platform virtualized under a stable multi core Linux.

The soon to be released Zen 2 will have on desktop 16 core with 32 hyperthreads. Next gen Zen 3 may have (according to rumors) 16 core, 64 hyperthreads (4 hyperthreads per core). Zen 3 is due within a year. Typical builds will have 16 to 64 GB of RAM. It is doubtful ReactOS will be out of alpha by that time, however as a virtualized Windows under Microsoft's preferred open source Linux it may run on modern hardware and supply needed support for those who do not wish to license Windows from Microsoft.

bobbykennedy
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by bobbykennedy » Thu May 16, 2019 12:46 am

Can you clarify how your idea is different from Linux with WINE?

Ancient
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by Ancient » Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 am

Two operating systems running under a common hypervisor. Linux and ReactOS. A hypervisor could help manage newer hardware and set up an environment for ReactOS. To the extent ReactOS is a variant of Windows this could make deployment easier. If Microsoft publicly releases it's WSL 2 Linux as open source, ReactOS can use the same Linux as Windows but not require a license. It would get more exposure and could run on newer hardware. If the argument is ReactOS is just WINE or Proton, then it has failed to achieve it's mission. Targeting a virtual environment and compatible with the same Linux as Microsoft is using could make ReactOS appealing assuming operating system components are significant to an application.

Quim
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by Quim » Thu May 16, 2019 6:13 am

Ancient wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 am
Two operating systems running under a common hypervisor. Linux and ReactOS. A hypervisor could help manage newer hardware and set up an environment for ReactOS. If Microsoft publicly releases it's WSL 2 Linux as open source, ReactOS can use the same Linux as Windows but not require a license. Targeting a virtual environment and compatible with the same Linux as Microsoft is using could make ReactOS appealing assuming operating system components are significant to an application.
How many technical ReactOS components and fixes needs to be development in order to get it work?
Someone that could open a Jira ticket of it.

ReactOS also needs to be compatible with real hardware too.

hbelusca
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by hbelusca » Thu May 16, 2019 10:11 am

Quim wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:13 am
How many technical ReactOS components and fixes needs to be development in order to get it work?
Someone that could open a Jira ticket of it.
Like, first being able to reach Windows 2003 compatibility, before starting introducing Win7+/10 functionality ??
Also, ReactOS already has an ext2/3/4 FS driver. Just look at the sources.
Quim wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:13 am
ReactOS also needs to be compatible with real hardware too.
That too.

erkinalp
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by erkinalp » Thu May 16, 2019 10:49 am

There already is an open JIRA ticket about ENIW (ReactOS' equivalent of WSL) proposal.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

Ancient
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by Ancient » Thu May 16, 2019 4:59 pm

erkinalp wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:49 am
There already is an open JIRA ticket about ENIW (ReactOS' equivalent of WSL) proposal.
Microsofts WSL 2 seems more evolved having a hypervisor running two operating systems as peers one Windows one Linux. To the extent this is open source as Microsoft is promising (on the Linux side). It may be possible to use the Microsoft Linux / hypervisor and replace Windows 10 with ReactOS. This would permit compatibility with the open source Linux provided by Microsoft and the open source ReactOS as an alternative to Windows 10. Running under a hypervisor allows creation of a suitable environment to run ReactOS. This doesn't make ReactOS a peer of Windows, but does permit use of ReactOS in some cases as at least a test alternative to Windows. It may help expand interest and offer an easier development platform. This on a $40 Atomic Pi, and maybe it could be better for developers. $40 is not too much of an investment for a stand alone test platform. Can Microsoft Linux a hypervisor and ReactOS fit in a 16 GB flash drive? If not can a hypervisor be booted from a USB 3 flash drive of which only 1 is supported by the Atomic Pi.

justincase
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by justincase » Thu May 16, 2019 8:40 pm

Ancient wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:40 am
If Microsoft publicly releases it's WSL 2 Linux as open source, ReactOS can use the same Linux as Windows but not require a license.
According to the video linked in the OP Microsoft will be making changes to the Linux kernel, and distributing it via Windows Update, therefore (since Linux is under the GPL) Microsoft will be required to do one of the following: Upstream any/all changes they make into the official Linux sources, waiting for them to be accepted before pushing out the update(s) that use them, or release their modified sources to their customers who want it. Technically this doesn't mean that they need to put them on a public server where people can download them from, but since they're legally required to supply their sources if someone they distributed the binaries to requests them, it's much simpler for them to upload the sources somewhere public than to have to deal with individually distributing the sources to each of the Linux people who have a copy of Windows 10 and want to see what Microsoft did. And since Microsoft owns GitHub now, it seems likely that they'll post the sources their.
Ancient wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:59 pm
It may be possible to use the Microsoft Linux / hypervisor and replace Windows 10 with ReactOS.
Unfortunately, just because Microsoft will be required to release their modified Linux sources doesn't mean that they have to open source the hypervisor that it runs on, as that's a separate product, and it's unlikely that the parts of Hyper-V that allow for 'lightweight VMs' (terminology taken from video linked in first post), and intercommunication between Windows 10 and the Linux OS running in these 'lightweight VM's' will be available on any other hypervisors.

While yes, ReactOS could theoretically be designed to run in a Hyper-V VM and communicate with a Linux distro in another VM using the same protocols MS is using, it's not a viable option as the user would have to have Windows installed on the computer to get the Hyper-V hypervisor (since it's not open source), the ReactOS team would have to reverse engineer how Windows communicates with Linux through the 'walls' of the hypervisor, and even then it probably requires the communication to be secured in some manner to prevent people from using these communication routes for malicious purposes.
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

erkinalp
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by erkinalp » Thu May 16, 2019 10:39 pm

My proposed architecture of ENIW is much simpler and it is based on thunking to user mode Linux. It also requires less kernel mode code than either WSL 1 or WSL 2.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

justincase
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by justincase » Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am

Isn't 'thunking' usually between apis of different bit depth? i.e. between 16-bit & 32-bit, or 32-bit & 64-bit Windows APIs?
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

erkinalp
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Re: Windows Linux includes full Linux OS w/ext4 file system

Post by erkinalp » Sun May 19, 2019 10:58 am

In this case, between ReactOS "ENIW Never Imitated WSL" subsystem and user-mode Linux kernel.
ENIW would also use the same users as ReactOS kernel and access the devices via ReactOS drivers. This means setuid will cause an escalation (with or without prompt) from ReactOS side and you will need to have usernames suitable for both.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

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