Don't like about page...

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nute
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Don't like about page...

Post by nute »

I don't like the Linux and Mac OS-X bashing. Linux's simple permission system is easy
to understand and use compared to NT's object model. Where is, "NT is rock solid,"
coming from? If that were true, UNIX would be dead. In fact, NT implemented by
Microsoft breaks down under heavy load. UNIX may be a dinosaur, but it scales
better than NT does.

ReactOS being touted as rock solid when there are rendering problems in firefox 1.5
the moment I scroll the page down seems ridiculous. It affects the back and forward
buttons as well when I scroll over them. Maybe the video subsystem is separate from
NT, but it sure is broken.

Bashing X Windows as the worst piece of software ever written is rude. Vista is the
worst piece of software ever written. Besides, Linux can support another GUI if
someone wants to implement one for it.

A flame war over how "bad Linux really is," could ignite, but that would be unfortunate.

Z98
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by Z98 »

Going down the list of complaints.

Alex works for Apple and takes pride in it. Do you honestly think he'd let slide an unjustified swipe at Mac OS X, which he has worked on? Even if he is officially no longer part of the project, we still take his opinion very seriously.

If you're referring to the read/write/execute model in *nix, I'm gonna point out that no one uses just that, since it's weak as hell and just asking for trouble. Most of the security in modern operating systems is based off of access control lists, which are abstracted differently on various systems, so just because you think you're using read/write/execute, doesn't mean you are. In Windows, you generally never deal with those security settings, since rarely are you in a situation where it's necessary. Only in a server or file sharing environment are you likely to have to deal with those, and most of the settings you need to get to for those purposes are fairly easy to access. Also, Linux has added support for Mandatory Access Control, a system far more complex than the traditional Unix security model and can be an absolute pain to use correctly, especially in a desktop environment.

Your claim regarding MS' NT implementation is basically a rewording of what the About page says, just far more anti-MS.

Scaling. Now that's an interesting term, especially without context. Taken to an extreme, basically no operating system in existence is capable of seamlessly scaling upwards. The average uptime on all those fancy super computer clusters with Linux is about 10 minutes (quoting my OS prof who does research into network technologies).

Propaganda at its finest, as far as that "rock solid" statement is concerned. The About page is more about the objective of the project than a description of its current state, which everyone here knows isn't production ready.

X Windows is very deserving of its reputation as a block of unwieldy code. Even people who work on Linux distros, and we even have a couple of those that hang out in our IRC channel, have ragged on it. They're basically stuck with a huge base of legacy code that is undergoing refactoring and fixing, but that doesn't change the current state of their code base.

If your intention is to avoid a flame war over Linux, you seem to have no reservations about starting one over Windows with your comment on Vista.

You're taking the About page too literally and too personally. It serves the purpose of explaining why the original authors of it believe the ReactOS project exists and also as a way to promote the project over others. If the tone sounds confrontational, that's to be expected, as we are competing with other operating systems.

GoBusto
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by GoBusto »

Asking why there is *NIX bashing on an NT website is like asking why there is Internet Explorer bashing on Firefox/Opera/Safari sites.

The whole point of the website is to express the point of view that the developers have: "Linux is fine, but we like NT better, thank you kindly."

Witch
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by Witch »

nute wrote:I don't like the Linux and Mac OS-X bashing.
...
...
Being blunt and to the point can unintentionally create enemies all around. Being diplomatic over every little detail is just a waste of precious Core-dev coding time. Whenever ReactOS reaches Stable status in the future. You can finally play all the Windows games without a Windows licensed OS. And you can still use Linux or Mac OS with dual- or multi-booting next to ReactOS on the harddrive.

You take the info page the wrong way I think. ReactOS isn't about replacing Linux or Mac OS it's about filling an empty void that neither of them can solve in the quickest possible way. No need for all the hate :wink: everybody wins even for Linux and Mac OS. ( The only one who doesn't win is Stevey B. )

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EmuandCo
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by EmuandCo »

Even Ballmer could "win". If a noob buys a PC with Vista, he will probably stay on it anyway. If someone needs professional support, which a FOSS OS cant offer, like for Commercial Servers, they still would have their ppl around them. The only ones who might vanish are the ones like we are. The ones who like Windows NT and its internals, the easy way to set it up and keep it run, but dont like the way MS implements and especially sells it overpriced. Btw nute. Everytime you post something here, we are close to a flamewar. Here some things I could just laugh at:

""NT is rock solid," If that were true, UNIX would be dead."
If a Mercedes is such a good car, why does Opel still exist??! Everyone has his favorites. I like my Opel car, my GF her Mercedes. Same fits here, too.

"ReactOS being touted as rock solid when there are rendering problems in firefox 1.5 the moment I scroll the page down seems ridiculous"
You seem to have forgotten that we are still in Alpha Stage and every step is something big here. Well I correct myself. You just dont understand what a heavy task it is to code a OS. And you even less understand how much waay heaver this task gets it you want to make it compatible to a hardly documented Architecture. You showed this naiveness more than once already. If you cant wait for a Beta Stage, then this is the wrong place for you.

"Vista is the worst piece of software ever written."
Absolutely wrong. This just confirms me in my opinion mentioned above. Vista or more precisely Win2k8 has its pros I dont want to miss anymore. Saying generally it sucks is childish and completely wrong.

EDIT:
And please stop declaring Linux as the holy grail. It has its advantages, sure. But many thing there are realized in such a stupid and overly complicated way that IT ppl just laugh at
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

nute
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by nute »

Of course I understand how hard it is to code an OS. Just because I dislike the about page doesn't
mean I'm clueless. NT doesn't scale in large installations with lots of users, say 10k. This is why
Microsoft has used Sun systems instead of NT to host hotmail. It is stupid to say an alpha quality
OS is better than everything else around or call it crap. BTW, I don't think MacOSX's interface is
geared toward noobs at the expense of power users. EdmuandCO, you are a huge jerk.

EdmuandCO, how can you claim that an undocumented architecture is better than Linux's
architecture? Calling Linux crap because it isn't Windows or MacOSX crap because it isn't
Windows is naive. Vista is the worst version of Windows ever because it takes more
freedom from the end user than it's predecessor. What right does the operating system have
to play cop anyways and why should the end user pay Microsoft to be policed? Don't get me
started on the rumors that service pack 1 is breaking anti virus software. Why should the
same computer run slower in Vista than XP for the same software program?

See http://badvista.fsf.org to see testimonials about why Vista is bad news.

Witch
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by Witch »

EmuandCo wrote:Even Ballmer could "win". If a noob buys a PC with Vista, he will probably stay on it anyway. If someone needs professional support, which a FOSS OS cant offer, like for Commercial Servers, they still would have their ppl around them....
...
...
...
One mountain at a time. The Prof-support mountain is nothing compared to the mountain you guys are climbing right now :wink:

j_anderw
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by j_anderw »

Why should the
same computer run slower in Vista than XP for the same software program?
Software development is an evolving process. Enhancements, bugfixes, improved error checks cause the code base to increase. As a effect the executable size increase and in the end require more memory. This is true for all software out there.

PS: Show me a piece of software where my claim doesn't hold!
regards,

Z98
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by Z98 »

The suggestion that NT doesn't scale is crap. Even oiaohm, who firmly believes that the advantages that make NT so appealing to corporations from a management perspective, would admit that there is nothing out there that matches the server/desktop setup of Active Directory for managing systems. Hell, it's the very reason that Samba and other projects are trying to clone those technologies that oiaohm believes Windows is losing its main advantage.

Undocumented architecture? More research has been done on NT than basically any other OS because it is closed source and people want to know what makes it tick. The Windows Internals books thoroughly explains the major aspects of the operating system design, talking about how the OS keeps track of things to scheduling to memory management to basically everything you need to understand how it works. The Win32 subsystem is equally as well documented in the Windows Graphics Programming book and there are plenty of other resources, including on MSDN itself, that even describe specific internal data structures. Source code is not required in order to understand how a system functions.

It's so easy to hate on Vista because it includes DRM. Why don't you hate on the studios that forced Microsoft to add DRM? Why shoot the messenger instead of going after the source?

"Rumors." That about says it all. And you're basically trying to defend companies like Symantec who improperly hook into the kernel and screw with the system, slowing it down and basically writing bad code. Who should we blame, MS for closing holes in the system, or the AV companies that are intentionally exploiting weaknesses in the system and not fixing their products to do things properly?

Why should MS not be allowed to raise system requirements as time passes by? That's like saying Apple shouldn't be allowed to drop support for PPC or Linux distros shouldn't add anything that will require a more powerful system when they do a new release. XP is old, like 7 years old. Are you saying Linux distros and Apple's current OS should have the same system requirements as they did back in 2001? And why are you blaming MS' coders for the screwups of their marketing departments?

Pointing to a FSF site to support your point isn't going to get you much headway here. The open source advocates here in the project far outnumber free software evangelists. We do not believe there is anything inherently evil about proprietary software, nor do we believe that "free" software is somehow inherently superior or moral. We also don't buy most of the FSF's own propaganda, as they are trying to make ethics the central focus of software. Since the foundation they uses in their arguments is something we don't believe in, that link is not going to convince any of us that Vista is somehow "bad" just because it's closed source and made by Microsoft.

Finally, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Calling someone a jerk for having an opinion different from yours isn't going to get you anywhere.

FlyingIsFun1217
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by FlyingIsFun1217 »

nute wrote: A flame war over how "bad Linux really is," could ignite, but that would be unfortunate.
Then why did you start this pointless topic?

FlyingIsFun1217

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EmuandCo
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Re: Don't like about page...

Post by EmuandCo »

Look at his other posts. He always looks for bad blood. Do it like me. After his last reply to my post which showed how weak minded he is, I started to ignore him. Its the only way to get rid of trolls.
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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