Current Development

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Haos
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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:50 pm

You're in a perfect age and state of knowledge to code your own OS, then you will understand most of those why's.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:06 pm

yes of course. rather than have my A level exam I programm my own OS, that never will be finished, and get suspended... makes a lot of sense... :)

Z98
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Re: Current Development

Post by Z98 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:38 pm

Your expectations of perfect software are highly unrealistic. No other field guarantees perfection and software development is no exception. Regardless of whether you pay for something or not, mistakes happen and compromises are often made. By your definition, you're not satisfied with anything you've ever bought because nothing can be flawless.

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Re: Current Development

Post by RaptorEmperor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:10 am

For the record, I was trying to format two hard drives in Windows NT 4 to install it, Windows NT saw one big hard drive instead of one, I wasn't paying attention, and when it went to format, boom went the dynamite. (If I remember it correctly, it made a click sound, Windows froze, and that was it.) The hardware doesn't even recognize it anymore. I tried it on other computers, too. Completely and utterly dead.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:37 pm

uhm, I know that I can't be satisfied :D

But how can an Operating System which I payed for be worse than a free one? Here is something going wrong. Really wrong. Linux freezes, that is true, but mostly because of overload and or the graphics system. The ATI Drivers .... okay... stop it here. Windows XP froze the two time more or less senseless. One time I was watching a video with the VLC media player (a free multimediaplayer, better than the Windows Media Player (which belongs to Windows, so I payed for it too!)) in fullscreen. I was going to shower, and when I came back, froozen. Ass. The other time I was copying files to an extern HDD. I wanted to let the OS show me some informations about the file, by hovering the mouse over the file, a tooltip apears. But rather than just apearing it did freeze.

Z98
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Re: Current Development

Post by Z98 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:35 pm

It is your opinion that Windows is somehow worse than Linux. That opinion does not reflect everyone else's. I find enough value in Windows to fork over money for it because I find the current Linux distros out there all inadequate for my needs. There are issues with Windows certainly, but none of them pales in comparison to my dissatisfaction with having to use a Linux box when my main priority is to run Windows apps. I am not interested in changing my software selection for the sake of changing an OS, since I use the OS to use applications, not the other way around.

Though let's turn it around a bit. Why are you expecting so much from MS when you've paid so little? You want rock solid stability with lots of features, something that not even the software used in airplanes and nuclear reactors deliver. Those generally trade off lots of features for stability and cost millions to develop, test, and verify, even more than Windows took to develop, and whose licenses runs into the thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands or even millions per seat. And that's ignoring these are often custom builds for a very well defined hardware stack instead of the mess of possible configurations in the PC environment. So you are basically demanding the hard guarantees that these people pay millions to get, in exchange for the maybe hundred or so dollars a Windows license costs? Actually, you're asking for even more since you want features plus those guarantees? No such software exists in the world.

Best not to bring up VLC. That thing has a lot of cruft in it and at times it's a minor miracle at works at all. Then there's the people who write hardware drivers and the general sorry state those are in, which MS pretty much has no influence over for old 32bit OSes like XP. At least if you were using a modern Windows OS running 64 bit, all the drivers have at least gone through some vetting and the most incompetent issues tend to be resolved.

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Re: Current Development

Post by Lone_Rifle » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:44 pm

If so, than surely naums is pretty much criticising the software ecosystem which Windows plays a part in, as opposed to the OS itself? I can imagine that Linux drivers would generally be of better quality than Windows ones, assuming that the former were not written by the manufacturer's allegedly incompetent employees and are thus subject to better software development practices. This is not to mention of course the other drawbacks of Linux drivers, like having to keep up with the Linux kernel ABI.

Z98
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Re: Current Development

Post by Z98 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:44 pm

Hmm, perhaps incompetent isn't the right word. Perhaps, lazy?

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:52 pm

One moment. You are telling me that a hundred euro are not much? A hundred for ONE fucking CD? I get an BluRay Disk with pretty much any PS3 Game I want for 60€ so why in god's name does Windows cost so much? Don't tell me the story of development costs so much. Sure it does. Buuuuuuuuut not only I have a Windows. There are like 95% of all home users and even in offices they use most often Windows. That make .... whatever 2 Million copies (?) okay... maybe not so much, but you see were it's pointing.

The Linux drivers are mostly not the best too. Lets see the ATI Driver for HD 5670 Radeon. This driver is the hell. The devil himself did program it. The radeonhd driver (opensource ati driver) isn't ready yet. Maybe that'll be a better driver, but in the future.

Lets compare Microsoft Windows Media Player with the VLC Media Player.

WMPlayer is slow and doesn't support shit. -- VLC is way faster than the WMPlayer and support nearly every format a video or audio could possibly be converted to.
WMPlayers functions: -playing music; -playing video; -ripping music from cd; -burning musc; -watch for MP3 informations.
VLCs functions: -playing music; -playing video; -converting video and music not caring whether the disk is copyright protected or not.

Same with the IE and FF. And Windows Movie Maker and Virtual Dub or VideoDub. and .... okay notepad is supposed to be as little and simple as possible, so is paint too, and I will not compare this with any kind of REAL program.

Haos
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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:15 pm

One moment. You are telling me that a hundred euro are not much? A hundred for ONE fucking CD? I get an BluRay Disk with pretty much any PS3 Game I want for 60€ so why in god's name does Windows cost so much? Don't tell me the story of development costs so much. Sure it does. Buuuuuuuuut not only I have a Windows. There are like 95% of all home users and even in offices they use most often Windows. That make .... whatever 2 Million copies (?) okay... maybe not so much, but you see were it's pointing.
Its because the cost of creating 1 MB binary is 10 000 (ten thousand) times bigger than creating 1MB of image or animation. This is still very careful approximization, i think the actual cost is even bigger. Games are mostly images/animation/sound if you count it per adjacent disk space. Applications are mostly code, OS-es even more. Also, cost of creating OS is even bigger than creating app of the same size.
The Linux drivers are mostly not the best too. Lets see the ATI Driver for HD 5670 Radeon. This driver is the hell. The devil himself did program it. The radeonhd driver (opensource ati driver) isn't ready yet. Maybe that'll be a better driver, but in the future.
Nvidia driver is way better. You want to know why? Because it throws away 1/3 of the X-Windows and replaces it with their own version. Cool eh? Just in case you want to praise linux development model bit louder.
Lets compare Microsoft Windows Media Player with the VLC Media Player...
Same with the IE and FF. And Windows Movie Maker and Virtual Dub or VideoDub. and .... okay notepad is supposed to be as little and simple as possible, so is paint too, and I will not compare this with any kind of REAL program.
Who cares? Apps that come with Windows are to provide some really basic functionality. You need more? There is an enourmous repo of Win32 apps, whole Internet of it, with large part freeware and/or opensourced. You just need to pick your poison.

Anyway, this is gone way too far. Can we have this thread moved to Offtopic?

Z98
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Re: Current Development

Post by Z98 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:18 pm

No, it's not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. It may be to you or me, but overall it's not. And as I have said, companies who have as big or even bigger budgets than Microsoft, whose code runs on platforms that are considerably less fragmented than the PC market and tends to only need to do a fairly small number of things, who have lots of motivation to make sure their code is as bug free as possible, since if something does go wrong, VERY BAD THINGS HAPPEN, like I don't know, a nuclear meltdown, or a passenger plane crashing, etc, can't even guarantee that their code is actually bug free. And then you expect MS, who has none of the luxuries of control over the hardware stack and who has to provide all kinds of interfaces for third party programmers to play with in Windows, to achieve something that the people who write the OS for planes and power plants and satellites can't pull off?

Haos
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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:23 pm

Control of hardware doesn't guarantee anything. In other case, Mac OSX would be bug-free.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:27 pm

Do I miss the point? Linux works. More or less, but it is sure stable. I believe more stable than Windows. (espacially Vista) Whether Linux is perfect (it can't) or secure I don't wanna argue about now. But I know Linux is way better than Windows. I think. The GUI is changeable. The design-theme is FULL changeable (not like in Windows the windows border color and that's it). ....

I just hope, that ReactOS doesn't do the same shit like Windows. And I hope that it'll support the old Windows applications too, like Picture Publisher (which Windows 7 doesn't do without changing the visual effects).

Edit: mac OSX is okay, But as far as I know it is for the user who have no clue about how to control a computer. everything in the gui. .... :lol:

Haos
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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:33 pm

This discussion is pointless. You have your beliefs. There is reality. Those two areas do not really match. I can discuss about real things, but not about something you believe in.

@Moderators: Offtopic please?

EmuandCo
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Re: Current Development

Post by EmuandCo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:42 pm

Moved due to popular demand.

naums, please no swearing. We are discussing friendly and expect you to do so, too.
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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