Current Development

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naums
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Current Development

Post by naums » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:28 am

I believe it is discussed and it was discussed arround here a lot: The Current state of Development. I tried the CLT Version from march this year, and I was really suprised how well done ReactOS is, at this "early" point of development. But how long are the developers stuck at 0.3.11? A year? Sorry, but in my opinion, there is no reason to wait with the release (of an alpha software) that long. This does not mean, that you should release it anyway, no care whether there are bugs or not. But I believe, you could set a release date, which you could choose freely, and in the case the development might take a little longer, you could give yourselfes more time. I believe it is way better, when the users (the community) know about the current state, and know when the next version will be released.

I will now feedback the things, what I liked, and what I not liked: I like the application manager. It remembers me on Linux, where you can easily install new software. But the application manager of ReactOS does behave strange. It did download and install the firefox, but not the AC93 Audio drivers. And maximized the application manager can crash the entire system.
The Explorer of ReactOS is quite okay, I don't really hate it, and I don't like it. The Firefox has a problem with any kind of Text in the Homepage. The Start-bar is okay, but there is no need of having buttons, that don't do a thing but giving an error dialog "Network is not implemented yet.". You wanna make an operating system, which is able to run Windows' .exe-Files. It is a very great idea. But there is no chance of coming as close to windows, that a user would not recognize it, when he replaces Windows with ReactOS. Don't get me wrong. I like the idea very much, and I like any kind of free (as in a free beer) software, when it works properly. And just because you wanna run Windows .exe files, doesn't mean you have to make the same mistakes like Micorosft at Windows. I know that the developing must go on to really see what errors you did and whether ReactOS will fail or not. I believe it will, not because of the programming or something, but because the people don't know you and wanna use "the windows, they know" on and on.

Thank you for reading through that awful text ^^

Naums

Z98
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Re: Current Development

Post by Z98 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:56 pm

Your statement hinges on the premise that we can predict where all the memory corruptions are happening. We can't. And until we get those sorted out, any release of ROS is going to be worse than probably the last two years worth of releases in terms of functionality and usability.

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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:00 pm

But I believe, you could set a release date, which you could choose freely, and in the case the development might take a little longer, you could give yourselves more time. I believe it is way better, when the users (the community) know about the current state, and know when the next version will be released.
How do you think such date should be set? Any proposal, like crystal ball or tarot cards? Also, what do you think, is worse - setting a date that will not be kept or not giving any release date at all?
And just because you wanna run Windows .exe files, doesn't mean you have to make the same mistakes like Micorosft at Windows.
What errors are you referring to?

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:18 pm

What errors am I referring to: Bluescreen at boot,with the current VDM-disk. Debug-boot and RAM Disk and so on aren't working.... I know it's an alpha... so - fuck it ^^. (am I allowed to say that???) Why has ReactOS a bluescreen at all? This is the worst idea of Microsoft ever. and most of the people left Windows behind, just because of the senseless bluescreens.

Well... they could decide ... so we have to make the new explorer, and the our internet explorer, or whatever... and ... you might need for that 2 weeks... so they will give themselves a month or even 2 month for fix some bugs and compiling, and uploading.

And it is an alpha, so when it doesn't work properly.... Fuck it. Windows isn't good either ^^.

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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:53 pm

Why has ReactOS a bluescreen at all? This is the worst idea of Microsoft ever. and most of the people left Windows behind, just because of the senseless bluescreens.
Why Linux has kernel panic? This is similar issue. If a serious error occurs, that might endanger or corrupt your stored data (like a crash in kernel mode), a KeBugCheck function is issued to stop execution immediately, so your stuff is actually PROTECTED. Apart from that, it displays crash info and often creates a memory dump of selected components, so you can later on analyze it in WinDBG and often see where the bug has originated from. This is Windows... BSODs how you call them, can yield plenty of information, if you only know SOME BASICS ABOUT THEM. You obviously didnt bother, well, its understandable, that dissing stuff just because you dont like it is actually easier than reading up a bit on it to have actually your OWN opinion about it.

Now, perhaps its bit far fetched, but you sound like thinking that if we didnt implement KeBugCheck (BSOD of yours) in ReactOS, it wouldn't crash.... That is more than naive.
Well... they could decide ... so we have to make the new explorer, and the our internet explorer, or whatever... and ... you might need for that 2 weeks... so they will give themselves a month or even 2 month for fix some bugs and compiling, and uploading.
That sentence above (provided that its about Windows, something you didnt make very clear) actually shows that your knowledge about software development is close to zero. Again, you have an opinion on something you have actually no idea about, hence, its not your own opinion.
And it is an alpha, so when it doesn't work properly.... Fuck it. Windows isn't good either ^^.
This sentence makes me lost completely. I rest my case.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:08 pm

uhm... no knowlegde about software development? www.oettinger-games.net.tf --> I programmed this Homepage alone. Not much, but .... lots of work...

Bluescreen for debugging? For what reason? Windows AND ReactOS could prevent the system to crash. Sorry... but I don#t care why Windows crashes, I just know that it crashes way to often... my Windows XP did freeze 2 times... I always use Linux because that is WAY better. no freezing (okay, that is a lie, I managed to let debian freeze one time AND ubuntu also 1 time. ), no bluescreens, everything works at least well. And when not, ubuntuuser.de help me. go-windows isn't at good as them...


And please don't get me wrong. I love ReactOS. And have not a clue about programming an own OS. It is freaking hard. I know... (www.proggen.org) they have a kernel project. I can programm with C/C++, PHP ...

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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:17 pm

hm... no knowlegde about software development? http://www.oettinger-games.net.tf --> I programmed this Homepage alone. Not much, but .... lots of work...
I said software programming, not web-developing. Quite some difference.
Bluescreen for debugging? For what reason? Windows AND ReactOS could prevent the system to crash.
No, they cant. If you do a mess with your code, you can either crash your system, or let it run freely and damage data. This is true for all kernel code, no matter if its Linux or NT.
Sorry... but I don#t care why Windows crashes, I just know that it crashes way to often... my Windows XP did freeze 2 times...
You should. In most times its either flunky hardware or crappy software, with driver doing bad things, or a hardware driver itself. In 99% of the cases, crash is caused by YOUR software or YOUR hardware.
I always use Linux because that is WAY better. no freezing (okay, that is a lie, I managed to let debian freeze one time AND ubuntu also 1 time. ), no bluescreens, everything works at least well. And when not, ubuntuuser.de help me. go-windows isn't at good as them...
XP got frozen 2 times, Debian - once and ubuntu (which is basically debian for newbies) also once. Windows while crashing, displayed information you could use to resolve the crash, and Linux? Lets say NT vs Linux - 2:2... but Linux is way better:>>> Nice logic.
Linux has its version of bsod, its called KERNEL PANIC.

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Re: Current Development

Post by RaptorEmperor » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:32 am

I'm not going to jump the gun and say you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about per-se, but you do seem somewhat deficient in understanding, to put it politely.

Web design and programming are very different things. If you've ever jumped between writing HTML and C++, you know. The closest analogue in web page development you'll get is probably Javascript or something, which is still quite different than actual Java.

If ReactOS gives a message saying "Networking is not implemented yet", well, it probably isn't. If you poked around on the website you'd see that networking in ReactOS is a known issue in need of addressing. ReactOS should be able to access the Internet in a virtual machine, but real hardware is probably a no-go. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Of course, to address the issue, you need programmers, and making an open-source Windows takes time even when you have the number of developers you need. (Which we don't.)

A bluescreen means something is going wrong. Kernel panic means something is going wrong. Guru meditation means something is going wrong. Sad Mac means something is going wrong. Red ring of death means something is going wrong. Windows isn't special in having a kill screen. Any OS worth its weight has one to protect the computer, and your data, from damage when it's going haywire and could risk that. It's a safety net. Ever had Windows blow an entire 20 gigabyte hard drive? I'd rather have had a BSOD right there, I can tell you that.

Those screens do give back information. You just have to know how to read them. Being a web developer, I'm sure you know what a 404 error is, but you probably didn't know before it was explained to you, did you?

I wouldn't get too hyped up on the Linux bandwagon. I'm using Windows 7, and sure, it's a memory hog. I'd rather use Linux (Ubuntu is my favorite), but all the distros I've tested (multiple times) cause the screen to black out and lock up minutes after start-up, when Windows does just fine. Linux has issues, too.

Smiley
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Re: Current Development

Post by Smiley » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:07 pm

RaptorEmperor wrote: Those screens do give back information. You just have to know how to read them. Being a web developer, I'm sure you know what a 404 error is, but you probably didn't know before it was explained to you, did you?
talking about a 404 error, check this :lol:
http://www.reactos.org/asgtsdh

EDIT: as you can see even though this is a bsod it gives plenty of information ;)

Haos
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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:10 pm

If ReactOS gives a message saying "Networking is not implemented yet", well, it probably isn't. If you poked around on the website you'd see that networking in ReactOS is a known issue in need of addressing. ReactOS should be able to access the Internet in a virtual machine, but real hardware is probably a no-go. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
The real difference between virtual and real platform in this case, is the network card being ran. ROS was on VMs, which also had their emulated network cards running on opensourced drivers. For real hardware, this is not always a case, several network card drivers still dont work due to bugs or unimplemented issues.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:33 pm

network: you don't see my point. I don't want the network implemented (okay, I want :P) But it's an alpha, so this is not the first issue. I would rather have not the option to klick this button or the button shouldn't be there, because this just sucks. Klicking on a button, and getting an error message.

Bluescreen: Sure it is way better to loose gigabyte of a project (for example rendering an HD Video) than loosing the whole disk. okay I can accept that. But why does windows have to exit programs. You know the problem that expecially Windows Vista closes Windows for no reason. Because it needs to much of RAM??? Or why does it close these Windows?

loosing a disk: uhm... how the f*** could windows destroy an HDD? When Programs write on the disk, everything is normal. And Why can't Windows not just easily give an error Window, axit the execution of the program if it sees a really big matter.

Software Developing: Yes. It takes freaking time. I know it from my Homepage (PHP!). I began it in march and now i'm at beta2. I did also manage to write a little 800 lines C++ Code for Windows. It worked quite well. except that Windows XP was able to write on the non seen Space of the console Window, and Windows 7 can not. --- that makes just no fucking sense.

Edit: With Release date I meant for example to make an iso image every month or two... but wether it works fine, or worse than the previous is not intresting. Yes have every month a iso or the current state. I think that'd be a good idea. But have the 0.3.11 as "unstable" and the monthly updated ones as "testing" or something like this.

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Re: Current Development

Post by Haos » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:46 pm

network: you don't see my point. I don't want the network implemented (okay, I want ) But it's an alpha, so this is not the first issue. I would rather have not the option to klick this button or the button shouldn't be there, because this just sucks. Klicking on a button, and getting an error message.
Your opinion. This is alpha stage OS, not a RTM product.
But why does windows have to exit programs.


Mostly because the said program did something really naughty, like performing illegal operation or letting a fatal exception out, unhandled. Again, the priority here is to reduce damage.
You know the problem that expecially Windows Vista closes Windows for no reason. Because it needs to much of RAM??? Or why does it close these Windows?
I have no idea what are you talking about. I`m using Vista almost since introduction of SP1 (over 2 years) and yet i never seen it closing itself or apps for NO reason.
loosing a disk: uhm... how the f*** could windows destroy an HDD? When Programs write on the disk, everything is normal. And Why can't Windows not just easily give an error Window, axit the execution of the program if it sees a really big matter.
Its not hdd destruction, i specifically written its about corruption/destruction of data. If something bad happens to usermode program, it just exits, in the way you whined about previously. The problem starts when something bad happens in code, functioning in kmode, like a driver. If you read up a bit on kmode/umode differences, you will notice that any code executed in kmode, has not only CPU priority, but also inherited trust, so it can basically do what it wants. Its only guard is the kernel, but no guard can be executed before the bad action happens (milk is spilled, crap hits the fan).Why? Several reasons, the one most clear to you, would be the performance issue. Thus, kernel cant and will not act preemptively. Kmode code differs enough from umode one, so it cannot be simply exited when bad things happen. If you'd somehow force it to work despite of BSOD, to lets say, unload it properly, it would end up in data corruption. If this corruption would be so unlucky to happen in vital system file, you would basically render the OS unbootable. If such problem would occur, lets say, during changing partitions on other hdd, then you would have leave that hdd logically corrupted. It could happen at any possible moment, causing virtually any logical damage you can think of. This is the small reason why bugcheck happens, even though it makes windows suck, in your opinion.
Software Developing: Yes. It takes freaking time. I know it from my Homepage (PHP!). I began it in march and now i'm at beta2. I did also manage to write a little 800 lines C++ Code for Windows. It worked quite well. except that Windows XP was able to write on the non seen Space of the console Window, and Windows 7 can not. --- that makes just no fucking sense.
I`m sorry to say, but things you say make you a really arrogant ignorant. Pretty rare combination. As i proved, you have no experience at all in OS engineering, virtually none in app development, yet you seem to be really certain on what makes sense and what does not. XP is almost 11 years old. Windows 7 changed considerably, comparing to it, and if you happen to bother to read up just a bit on reasoning behind those changes, you will notice that those changes usually happen for a reason. I cannot say precisely what was the reason in this case, but in neither of those a 800 line C++ app shall make understanding them any easier. Please, at least try to look for the information on why was something done, before deciding if its sensible or not.

naums
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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:21 pm

performing illegal operation or letting a fatal exception out, unhandled.
What would that be? Any Code which would have that would just not becoming compile, would it? Okay... sorry. for example when a filename needs to put in, but this file doesn't exists. That is a reason to crash the app. :P

I said that I have NO clue about how to write an operating system, but I think in theory that all would make a little bit sense... :D And I did never say that I am proud of it, but I am proud of beeing able to write a little app that actually works, in the age of 16... of course... I'm not better than Bill Gates... but... lets just stop it here.

Why should Windows bother on having apps run in Kernel Mode? These apps should be ones of Microsoft Windows such as the GUI (no, sorry the GUI is IN the kernel) yep...

And why I like Linux more than Windows: Both have their Problems. But in Linux I can tell why these problems are there. Because no programmer wants to make programs for free. So compiz is unstable. But does work quite fine. The BootTime of Windows and Linux (ubuntu 10.04) can't be compared. After disabling plymouth Linux boots way faster than Windows. Even before, linux was faster. Linux doesn't need a minute to log you in and to start the desktop, Windows does... Autostart is nearly empty. I use Ubuntu way more often, than Windows, and Windows is way slower than Windows. And there is no reason why Windows should have errors. I have to pay for it, so how in hell can Windows have such big issues?

Windows XP is the best Windows ever, most compatible, moderate in using resources. .... Vista and 7 can't start older Win 98 applications... why can't they? is it so difficult to make them compatible to an OS I programmed before?

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Re: Current Development

Post by SuperDog » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:46 pm

How old are you naums?

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Re: Current Development

Post by naums » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:02 pm

in the age of 16

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