my thoughts

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Z98
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Re: my thoughts

Post by Z98 » Wed May 19, 2010 5:35 am

Commentary and whatever from nute aren't the problem, it's just that he ignores anything that points out problems in his suggestions, inaccuracies, or mistakes. And he takes attempts to correct those mistakes as personal attacks on his character or some such. Notice how he never addresses the technical or legal issues people bring up against his suggestions or even try to modify his suggestions to work around them. And when the IRC channel once pointed out he was in the wrong when he said MS never released code under the GPL, thus removing the 'proof' he was using for one of his arguments, he continued trying to advance his argument even though its support was gone and couldn't come up with anything else to back it. So think carefully whether any of you guys want to continue this conversation with nute, as it won't be much of a dialogue so much as a long one-sided rant from him telling you you're wrong and he's right.

(Still on vacation, managed to get net access today)

dark
Posts: 275
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Re: my thoughts

Post by dark » Wed May 19, 2010 7:05 am

Z98 wrote:Commentary and whatever from nute aren't the problem, it's just that he ignores anything that points out problems in his suggestions, inaccuracies, or mistakes. And he takes attempts to correct those mistakes as personal attacks on his character or some such. Notice how he never addresses the technical or legal issues people bring up against his suggestions or even try to modify his suggestions to work around them. And when the IRC channel once pointed out he was in the wrong when he said MS never released code under the GPL, thus removing the 'proof' he was using for one of his arguments, he continued trying to advance his argument even though its support was gone and couldn't come up with anything else to back it. So think carefully whether any of you guys want to continue this conversation with nute, as it won't be much of a dialogue so much as a long one-sided rant from him telling you you're wrong and he's right.

(Still on vacation, managed to get net access today)
It's just like the Linux people who say it's superior to windows and mac, then totally ignore any statistics and the problems mentioned. Most of it is caused by not having some sort of religion, but people have a need to believe in something so some fulfill the need subconsciously by believing in Linux and open source. If you've ever tried arguing logic with someone who puts their religion first you know firsthand it will never work; and nute's postings so far prove to me that he is in the same group.


reactosfan
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Re: my thoughts

Post by reactosfan » Wed May 19, 2010 9:26 am

This fruitless discussion is going on, really???

mrugiero
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Re: my thoughts

Post by mrugiero » Wed May 19, 2010 11:27 am

What that links are Lone_Rifle?

Sof_T
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Re: my thoughts

Post by Sof_T » Wed May 19, 2010 11:38 am

mrugiero wrote:What that links are Lone_Rifle?
Nute's website

EmuandCo
Developer
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Re: my thoughts

Post by EmuandCo » Wed May 19, 2010 12:20 pm

And Address... No clue what you expect from posting it, but OK. Whois is puclically available, so the links leading to these private Information can stay IMO.
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Aeneas
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Re: my thoughts

Post by Aeneas » Wed May 19, 2010 2:57 pm

@b4dc0d3r: Let's be frank, your contributions are a total gem! ;) - I was once a bit critical about the unawareness of the community of what is happening, but you turned it 180°, in particular talking a language that people understand who might not enjoy great experience in the field of informatics.

@discussion: Well, as far as I see it, the developers seem to be up to something in the not too far-away future. Also the arwinss isos are not to be disregarded (thanks gabrielilardi), which are a form of "sub-release" if you ask me. I must say, I have given up the hope for ReactOS to become anything quickly, but I also see a very real chance that it will become usable before it is "too late" (i.e. when people generally forget about XP - which is quite into the future, having in mind all the rather fresh netbooks that people will not want to trash just because MS stopped support). Any "restart" would probably not get half as far as ReactOS is already. I only hope this marvellous creation will continue to be improved in a focused manner.

nute
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Re: my thoughts

Post by nute » Thu May 20, 2010 9:55 am

Can anyone explain why I am permanently not allowed to post my own threads? This is an extreme response that should be reserved for people trying to engage in serious criminal activities, not merely people who complain.

EULA's are NOT legal agreements as most people don't even read them and many of the stipulations in them have been shot down in court. According to the DMCA, you have a right to reverse engineer software so you can continue to use it if there are hardware changes where the owner of the software doesn't move to support those changes. Is clamwin antivirus illegal because open source GPL'ed code is potentially coming in contact with Microsoft's proprietary code which it is supposed to protect? The answer is no. Even though clean room in the dark engineering of a Windows NT like OS is legal, without more developers, this approach may be impossible.

Perhaps a better approach to getting an open source version of Windows NT produced that actually works is to convince Microsoft to do what once was promised. Where is NT Lite? Microsoft has never delivered an open NT style operating system. There has to be a way to put pressure on Microsoft to at least make the task of producing a GPL'ed Windows NT like OS less difficult by getting the company to produce more information about internals, etcetera. Bill Gates has made more money than anyone else on software in the whole history of software, which is a short history. Ethically, he should open Windows up more to competitors and yes, even this project. The Windows monopoly is the ultimate example for arguing that copyright law is being abused and needs to be amended to prevent software monopolies from dominating for literally a century or longer. We aren't up to a century yet living with the Windows monopoly, but this is a possibility. The Microsoft monopoly is about 30 years old and seemingly on track to go 3+ times that. I hope by 2080 that Microsoft doesn't still have a monopoly.

Apple with MacOSX seems like Microsoft's competitor, but the sad truth is that the Mac's market share is minimal compared to Microsoft WIndows equipped PCs. Worse, Microsoft owns 50% of Apple's stock. Microsoft is so big and the antitrust laws are so weak, Microsoft can potentially buy out any and all competitors that pose a real threat to the company's dominance. ReactOS without more developers does not pose the kind of threat that is needed to topple Microsoft's monopoly or convince Microsoft to be friendlier towards competitors. I think everyone wants ReactOS to be a significant player in the Windows marketplace. I just wish that ReactOS had a better chance than it seems to have at this point. If Microsoft was taxed steeply because of the monopoly status the company enjoys and the money went toward supporting ReactOS and other competing efforts, that would help.

Sof_T
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Re: my thoughts

Post by Sof_T » Thu May 20, 2010 11:13 am

nute wrote:EULA's are NOT legal agreements as most people don't even read them and many of the stipulations in them have been shot down in court. According to the DMCA, you have a right to reverse engineer software so you can continue to use it if there are hardware changes where the owner of the software doesn't move to support those changes. Is clamwin antivirus illegal because open source GPL'ed code is potentially coming in contact with Microsoft's proprietary code which it is supposed to protect? The answer is no. Even though clean room in the dark engineering of a Windows NT like OS is legal, without more developers, this approach may be impossible.
There you go again, you seem to be an educated individual and yet you consistently make claims without any backing. EULA are legal agreements and as such may or may not be upheld in court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement. In future if you are going to make bold claims please back them up with references.
nute wrote:Perhaps a better approach to getting an open source version of Windows NT produced that actually works is to convince Microsoft to do what once was promised. Where is NT Lite? Microsoft has never delivered an open NT style operating system. There has to be a way to put pressure on Microsoft to at least make the task of producing a GPL'ed Windows NT like OS less difficult by getting the company to produce more information about internals, etcetera. Bill Gates has made more money than anyone else on software in the whole history of software, which is a short history. Ethically, he should open Windows up more to competitors and yes, even this project.
Bill gates no longer runs Microsoft, though he still works there and sit on the board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_gates, ethically he and/or Microsoft are not under compulsion to do anything. Bill Gates uses a chunk of his fortune on charitable works which he isn't forced to do either, but chooses to do.
nute wrote:The Windows monopoly is the ultimate example for arguing that copyright law is being abused and needs to be amended to prevent software monopolies from dominating for literally a century or longer. We aren't up to a century yet living with the Windows monopoly, but this is a possibility. The Microsoft monopoly is about 30 years old and seemingly on track to go 3+ times that. I hope by 2080 that Microsoft doesn't still have a monopoly.
I fully agree, but in that case you should be fighting copyright law with people like the Pirate Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pirate_Party rather than pressure people in a project like this to do things your way.
nute wrote:ReactOS without more developers does not pose the kind of threat that is needed to topple Microsoft's monopoly or convince Microsoft to be friendlier towards competitors. I think everyone wants ReactOS to be a significant player in the Windows marketplace. I just wish that ReactOS had a better chance than it seems to have at this point. If Microsoft was taxed steeply because of the monopoly status the company enjoys and the money went toward supporting ReactOS and other competing efforts, that would help.
No where has the ReactOS project been promoted as an attempt to topple Microsoft or to alter Microsoft's business practices, you are now imposing your view of the world upon the aims of this project. As has been said many times before if that is the shape you see the world and if your aims are so divergent from this project fork off your own version of ReactOS, gather a group of developers and do battle with Microsoft. However don't try to force people to follow your will, this project is made up of individuals who have their own dreams, aspirations and ways of looking at the world. This project is theirs which they choose to share with the rest of us, therefore they have the right to decide how they want it to progress and what it's aims should be.

jorl17
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Re: my thoughts

Post by jorl17 » Thu May 20, 2010 12:34 pm

This is funny, I can imagine Nute as someone just pooling for messages and then copy-and-pasting them onto a random thread that involves him. He then fills in random citations and flames someone. It's as if he couldn't read -- just write.

Good for you, you've made me laugh for around a year. I think there's a time when someone has to be shut up, particularly if that someone is considered by the community as someone who ignores advice -- yet keeps posting.

Just my two cents adding to this flamewar, now, go pump some messages onto other threads. While you're at it, understand why most of the crap you suggest is just that -- crap. Not that I have suggested good things, though.

bugboy
Developer
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Re: my thoughts

Post by bugboy » Thu May 20, 2010 1:22 pm

I really really really like spinach. A lot of people don't like it because its green and doesn't look to pleasant.
But it is really good. And good for you.
I think everyone should like spinach. You must because its so damn good.
I feel that those people that do no like spinach should be forced to eat broccoli.
That would teach them a lesson.

Everyone eat more spinach now!!

:)
Image

oiaohm
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Re: my thoughts

Post by oiaohm » Thu May 20, 2010 1:48 pm

Nute MS open sourcing windows is not going to happen any time soon.

If requesting worked we would have open source OS/2 Warp.

Changing copyright will not change software monopolies. Demanding standards is the only way to allow competition to exist. People like to forget XP first of MS products to be protected by a DRM like system.

Pirate Party arguments over copyright are stupid. Without the source code to a program you cannot maintain it so at some point it will become useable due to security flaws. Copyright is just as important to Reactos to make sure code alterations come back as it is to a closed source program producing applications.

People also like to forget Windows 3.11 API was fully documented as a standard. So clones could have been implemented and were. Windows 95 was not fully documented as a standard and everything goes down hill to a monopoly after that. Not working by standards builds monopolies. Copyright is only a small side bit to a monopolies.

rembrandt
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Re: my thoughts

Post by rembrandt » Thu May 20, 2010 3:16 pm

oiaohm wrote:.... Not working by standards builds monopolies. Copyright is only a small side bit to a monopolies.
I think Patents are the biggest chunk in the pie.

Black_Fox
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Location: Czechia

Re: my thoughts

Post by Black_Fox » Thu May 20, 2010 3:49 pm

bugboy wrote:I think everyone should like spinach. You must because its so damn good.
You are damn right, my good sir. :D

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