my thoughts

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nute
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my thoughts

Post by nute » Sun May 16, 2010 12:23 am

ReactOS is a mess where the moderators are obviously afraid of anyone who will say so evidenced by the fact that I can't post my own threads even after nearly a month of being away. Perhaps a better approach to creating an open version of Windows than ReactOS is to release patches for individual components of Windows XP that slowly but surely replace all of the proprietary code with GPL code. The advantage of this approach is that you never have to release alpha quality code. The problem of coding a whole entire OS is never dealt with all at once with this approach. Eventually, the patches can be pulled together to form an installable replacement for Windows XP. Patching Windows XP or even Windows 7 might be more popular than working on an alternative OS that potentially won't work well for at least 10 more years. The product, a patched copy of XP or 7, won't be free until you are done and have patched all of the proprietary code away. This is a disadvantage, but it has to be weighed against the advantage of having something resembling an alternative that works today.

Replace the Windows XP kernel and all the DLLs, what is left that is proprietary?

The last newsletter, newsletter 72, looks pretty bleak. I haven't been able to get the ReactOS source code to compile lately and I tried as recently as last night.
The problem with the ReactOS project is that this project is too big for the number of volunteers who are working on it. If this project focused on patching away the proprietary code in an OS that works, progress would be easier to measure and there would be something usable today. Maybe ReactOS would be more popular if there was something that is dependable enough for day to day use today.

Volunteers need to see that they are making progress and they need to show something usable to attract more volunteers. The volunteers have done and are doing a terrific job, but questions remains about the wisdom of the ReactOS project as a whole. The approach being taken has the downside of alpha quality code being the norm for potentially years to come. The talk of Arwinss being a shortcut, that is premature and silly.

I really don't think that rescinding posting rights should be used as a tool to punish people who say anything negative about the ReactOS project, nor do I think that a suspension for merely being negative should ever be permanent.
Last edited by gabrielilardi on Tue May 18, 2010 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: renamed title

EmuandCo
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by EmuandCo » Sun May 16, 2010 1:54 am

Hey, who un-banned you?? :ugeek:
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

dark
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:40 pm

Re: ReactOS is...

Post by dark » Sun May 16, 2010 3:40 am

EmuandCo wrote:Hey, who un-banned you?? :ugeek:
A better question would be "how goes fulfilling your religious need to believe in something with software?".

reactosfan
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my thoughts3

Post by reactosfan » Sun May 16, 2010 7:19 am

All kernel programmers believe in the computer god! The pope for i386/486 is encoded by the number 666. The xxx OS is their bible. Patches and the manual installation of it are something like confessions in the now 4 crossed cathedrals (multiplied kernels) of the mainstream believers. I would prefer to not patch at all or better to update occasionally the whole bible for a better and devil excluded interpretation of the only and absolute and true belief!

:lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:

swight
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by swight » Sun May 16, 2010 10:07 am

If such a thing was attempted you would have to purchase Windows until it was complete. The way things are done now you don't have to pay a cent if the functionality you need is available. Also compare the size of the two. XP is over 1GB whereas ReactOS is less than 50 MB. Patching you would never get this type of size reduction for similar functionality as the structure would be much more forced to stay the same. Also you can only patch so many holes in a boat til it won't hold water.

mrugiero
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by mrugiero » Mon May 17, 2010 12:38 am

The MS license does not allow to change any of their components.

**M**
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 pm

my thoughts4

Post by **M** » Mon May 17, 2010 4:58 am

Hmm maybe the reverse would be better, something like wine-tricks but reactos-tricks. Replacing currentl dll's that arent 100% percent
implemented with their react-os compatable(if thats possible at all) XP counter-parts until they are finished in by devs.
Would only be good for current owners of xp but still interesting to see.
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nute
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my thoughts

Post by nute » Tue May 18, 2010 8:48 am

When a moderator says something intentionally inflammatory and nobody corrects him/her, what does that say about that moderator let alone the community as a whole?

What is the so called "religious need" comment getting at?

I don't need to believe in ReactOS. Even so, I want ReactOS to become dependable and stable over the mess that ReactOS is right now. This is not suitable for day to day use says quite clearly that ReactOS is a mess. Life will go on even if the ReactOS project doesn't produce anything suitable for day to day use for another decade or longer. ReactOS is a messy approach to providing a GPL alternative to Windows. Patching Windows proprietary features away gradually over time might be a better approach than the code everything clean room, from scratch, with little to no guidance from Microsoft approach. When you patch a working operating system, you may not be able to patch enough to erase all of the proprietary code. Thing is, you will erase what you can figure out and duplicate the functionality where the result has a fair to decent chance of being stable. Microsoft only wants to support Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008. This means that there is a window of opportunity for third party open source patches to take off. Code developed for ReactOS is tested against Windows XP and later as it is.

There are problems that are intractable. Coding a GPL version of Windows that is sufficiently compatible with the proprietary versions could be such a problem. The newsletters, quite frankly, have been chalk full of what seems like bad news lately. I am not trying to insult anyone by saying this, this is just an observation.

As far as new releases of ReactOS coming out, I see two possibilities going forward:

1) Things stay slow for a while longer followed by progress picking up significantly before the end of the year.

2) The problems slowing forward progress for ReactOS prove to be even more intractable than they look now. Development halts or slows to a crawl.

Which possibility will win out? Hopefully, 1 wins and 2 is excessively pessimistic. We will all know the answer sooner or later.

ReactOS is an experiment that got a second chance where other attempts to do the same thing fell apart. Why have other attempts to create an open source Windows NT compatible OS failed?
Clearly, there is some dedication behind ReactOS or the project wouldn't still be going 12+ years later. Forecasting forward, ReactOS could become stable in 1-5, 10-12, 20, 30 years or further out than that even. Nobody can predict with any accuracy when the issues that are making ReactOS unsuitable for day to day use will be resolved.

ReactOS is attracting developers from a limited pool of talent. There is a need to cull talent from a larger pool. I hope this turns around as seeing ReactOS move forward sooner is better than seeing forward progress happen much later. Windows is still expensive for many people where any problem in Windows has to be essentially fixed by Microsoft or not fixed at all.

Lone_Rifle
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by Lone_Rifle » Tue May 18, 2010 9:47 am

nute wrote:gobbledygook
No.

EmuandCo
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by EmuandCo » Tue May 18, 2010 9:58 am

nute wrote:When a moderator says something intentionally inflammatory and nobody corrects him/her, what does that say about that moderator let alone the community as a whole?
It does not say anything about me, just very much about the person I threw something "intentionally inflammatory" at...
nute wrote:ReactOS is a messy approach to providing a GPL alternative to Windows.
I demand sources for this conclusion. If you dont have any I just feel confirmed in my opinion regarding you and your Coding experience. Even me as Basic C Coder sees the tidy code we have. Compare it with GCC or FireFox and then come back to complain if you still think its needed.
nute wrote:Patching Windows proprietary features away gradually over time might be a better approach than the code everything clean room, from scratch, with little to no guidance from Microsoft approach.
Read the EULA and you will see why this Idea is nothing to even think about.
nute wrote:The newsletters, quite frankly, have been chalk full of what seems like bad news lately.
And again, sources plz. I translated em all and don't see anything confirming you.
nute wrote:I am not trying to insult anyone by saying this, this is just an observation.
Close game, as always when you talk.
nute wrote:As far as new releases of ReactOS coming out, I see two possibilities going forward:

1) Things stay slow for a while longer followed by progress picking up significantly before the end of the year.

2) The problems slowing forward progress for ReactOS prove to be even more intractable than they look now. Development halts or slows to a crawl.

Which possibility will win out? Hopefully, 1 wins and 2 is excessively pessimistic. We will all know the answer sooner or later.
And we already explained this to you 3*10^8 times, we do many commits every day but we don't feel the urge to make official releases every week. If you wanna test new stuff, get the friggin nightlies!
nute wrote:Nobody can predict with any accuracy when the issues that are making ReactOS unsuitable for day to day use will be resolved.
Exactly. But be sure we don't just rock balls here...
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Lone_Rifle
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by Lone_Rifle » Tue May 18, 2010 10:26 am

EmuandCo wrote:drivel
No. Why even bother? It's quite clear newt does not speak our language. You have to treat newts like you treat any other animal. You have to train it.

gabrielilardi
Moderator Team
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by gabrielilardi » Tue May 18, 2010 10:55 am

@LoneRifle and Dreimer, please calm down, no personal attacks here, if you don't agree with something reply politely or just ignore it. This is again going off topic. If you have personal issues use PM instead. Thanks.

The123king
Posts: 242
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Re: ReactOS is...

Post by The123king » Tue May 18, 2010 1:07 pm

Nute, i'm sorry, but purely patching Windows is against the Windows EULA, and as the apple Vs Psystar lawsuit can prove, EULA's are legal contracts. If you replace components of Windows is FOSS ones, the FOSS project that produced the code could potentially have their asses sued off. It's not all practical reasons that ReactOS is like it is, it's mainly legal ones.

If you want to change the progress of ReactOS, stop critisising it and contribute :)

Angelus
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Re: my thoughts

Post by Angelus » Tue May 18, 2010 7:10 pm

No more deaf than not hear.

This is like a "déjà vu". Over and over again.

b4dc0d3r
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Re: my thoughts

Post by b4dc0d3r » Wed May 19, 2010 4:11 am

nute, I took part of what came out of your complaints last time, the lack of observable updates, and turned into something real. I may not be helpful, but getting news out does help the target audience.

If you have any other concrete ideas, I or any number of other people would like to hear it. Abstractions or stating the obvious aren't helping, and just about all of Windows is priorietary so we're already doing what you're suggesting so your previous comment doesn't really qualify.

It would be nice if we had more developers, but most hang out on IRC or mailing lists, so whatever happens in the forums is darn near irrelevant.

ReactOS needs help, no one is arguing this point. Now, what are you going to do to help? More random thoughts, or something practical?

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