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nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:05 am

Being truly off topic and being something people don't want to discuss are two totally different things.
What is so wrong with asking about the next major release? What is so wrong with asking people in the
ReactOS community to put some reasoning behind their faith that this project will produce a dependable,
free, WIndows compatible OS in a reasonable amount of time? I don't believe in having blind faith in
ReactOS or any OS for that matter.

The delay in getting ReactOS 0.3.11 out is not a positive thing. It makes those of us who are waiting for
ReactOS to be usable reasonably concerned.

If ReactOS is pushed as an effort that is needed because the result is going to be better than Linux, I don't
think it will gain very many developers. If the developers pretend there is an infinite amount of time to
crush bugs and add needed features, that isn't going to help attract anyone to this project either. I am not
the only one who has put up threads asking about 0.3.11 nor am I solely responsible for the bulk of the content
in these threads.

Ask stupid questions, because you may be the only one who will where everyone may want the answer.

How many developers are there working on ReactOS right now? How many hours a week do you dedicate
to working on it on average? How many of those hours would you say are productive on average? How many
hours do you think it will take at the rate the developers are working on ReactOS to reach a beta quality OS?

If a prediction, anywhere in the ballpark is fine, can be made about when ReactOS will reach beta that would
be very useful. Now then, confounding factors are will ReactOS's rate of improvement pick up in 6 months, a
year, or later? I'm sure that everyone is hoping that the pace of improvement will pick up. It is likely easier
to become WIndows 7 compatible when you are Windows XP compatible for example than it was to become
Windows XP compatible in the first place.

Linux can be improved and being a more mature OS right now than ReactOS, why should ReactOS get more attention
than Linux+WINE? Sure you can't run WIndows drivers generally on Linux, but Linux supports a lot of hardware with
it's own drivers and people can be careful about what they buy.

Someone has suggested that ReactOS is developing about as quickly as Windows NT has. Maybe, maybe not. I don't
think Microsoft spent 12+ years getting their first version of NT out. NT has been worked on since at least the mid
90's, so it is at least 19 years old now. If Microsoft spends more than 4 years on a major upgrade to NT, it is spending
a long time on it. I sincerely hope that ReactOS at some point in the not too distant future starts keeping pace with
Windows NT. If it is going to replace Windows, it is going to have to keep up with it.

We are pushing towards Thanksgiving, a U.S. holiday on the 24th, and it looks like there may not be a release before
that holiday. Indeed, I'm wondering if there will be a release by Christmas at this point. What is the record for delay
to a major release? So far, something that should have come out in September, if at all possible, is still delayed and
has almost been delayed for 2 whole months. It might be delayed for 3 months or maybe it will come out tomorrow,
I simply do not know. The question going forward is, how often are major releases going to be delayed past the 2 month
target and how long on average are those delays going to be? Are any major releases going to come out early? Will it
average out or will a 2 month target lead to a 4-6 month release cycle? If a 6 month release cycle is what happens, will
it take fewer major releases to go from say a 0.y.x release to a 0.y+1.x release?

Right now, ReactOS still lacks user context and user logins.

ReactOS lacks defragmentation tools.

ReactOS cannot handle complex partitioning schemes at install time.

ReactOS doesn't have filesystem checks at install time or at any time after that.

ReactOS explorer needs to be replaced, most of the buttons do nothing.

Browsing the start menu in ReactOS there is still a rendering issue.

Networking is still sluggish.

Network neighborhood is cloned in Linux but doesn't exist yet in ReactOS.
I find that strange.

ReactOS can't run programs like Warcraft II BNE including the map editor.

ReactOS time synchronization, ntp service, needs to allow user input of servers.

ReactOS can run the Diablo II demo, but not the commercial program as far as I know.
I have a copy for when it will work as a milestone test.

ReactOS is seemingly a mess still, but that's okay for alpha quality software. What is
not okay for many people is waiting for ReactOS to stabilize if it is not going to in any
reasonable amount of time.

I would like to see this thread move towards a discussion of why this project is worth it
and where it may progress to in 6 months to a year from now. In 2011, what will the
ReactOS community have? Why should I or anyone else for that matter believe in the
ReactOS project when it isn't even possible to ask about the next major release without
being labeled as a troll? What is so wrong about wanting information about every
major release, especially when there is a delay? If anything, asking about one release
after the next after the next should demonstrate how closely I and perhaps other people
as well are trying to follow ReactOS.

If people could stop calling me a troll and start moving this thread toward the more useful discussion
of "Why is ReactOS worthwhile despite the delays," that would be very much appreciated.

Smiley
Developer
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Smiley » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:27 am

nute wrote: How many developers are there working on ReactOS right now? How many hours a week do you dedicate
to working on it on average? How many of those hours would you say are productive on average? How many
hours do you think it will take at the rate the developers are working on ReactOS to reach a beta quality OS?
The devs have a real life as well so they work for Reactos in their free time. Most of them need to dedicate time for university, someto school or to their real work wich is their income.The conclusion is that we indeed need more developers.
nute wrote: We are pushing towards Thanksgiving, a U.S. holiday on the 24th, and it looks like there may not be a release before
that holiday. Indeed, I'm wondering if there will be a release by Christmas at this point. What is the record for delay
to a major release? So far, something that should have come out in September, if at all possible, is still delayed and
has almost been delayed for 2 whole months. It might be delayed for 3 months or maybe it will come out tomorrow,
I simply do not know. The question going forward is, how often are major releases going to be delayed past the 2 month
target and how long on average are those delays going to be? Are any major releases going to come out early? Will it
average out or will a 2 month target lead to a 4-6 month release cycle? If a 6 month release cycle is what happens, will
it take fewer major releases to go from say a 0.y.x release to a 0.y+1.x release?
As you know, the only reason the release has been delayedbecause of a single bug
nute wrote: ReactOS doesn't have filesystem checks at install time or at any time after that.
It has for some time
nute wrote: ReactOS explorer needs to be replaced, most of the buttons do nothing.
Networking is still sluggish.
Explorer and networking are being worked righ now
nute wrote: Right now, ReactOS still lacks user context and user logins.

ReactOS lacks defragmentation tools.

ReactOS cannot handle complex partitioning schemes at install time.

Browsing the start menu in ReactOS there is still a rendering issue.

Network neighborhood is cloned in Linux but doesn't exist yet in ReactOS.
I find that strange.
If we had more devs we could have these features as well
nute wrote: ReactOS can't run programs like Warcraft II BNE including the map editor.

ReactOS can run the Diablo II demo, but not the commercial program as far as I know.
I have a copy for when it will work as a milestone test.
The faster you add them in bugzilla, the faster they will be fixed
nute wrote: ReactOS time synchronization, ntp service, needs to allow user input of servers.
That's a mionor issue



I hope I helped you a bit

RaptorEmperor
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:09 am

Nute, lucky for you I have spare time. Thus, I refute some of your points.
nute wrote:Linux can be improved and being a more mature OS right now than ReactOS, why should ReactOS get more attention
than Linux+WINE? Sure you can't run Windows drivers generally on Linux, but Linux supports a lot of hardware with
it's own drivers and people can be careful about what they buy.
People can be careful of what they buy, but they generally don't want to, because they are generally lazy. I remember when I was using Linux for the first time I almost gave up on Linux because it wouldn't work on with my Winmodem, and in the end I had to spend $40 for a used external modem. (That never worked out, either, since Netzero only provided a broken, out-of-date Linux client to connect with their servers.) People don't like dealing with that kind of running around, and most people would probably call it quits if supposedly free software costs that much time and money to set up.
nute wrote:Someone has suggested that ReactOS is developing about as quickly as Windows NT has. Maybe, maybe not. I don't
think Microsoft spent 12+ years getting their first version of NT out. NT has been worked on since at least the mid
90's, so it is at least 19 years old now. If Microsoft spends more than 4 years on a major upgrade to NT, it is spending
a long time on it. I sincerely hope that ReactOS at some point in the not too distant future starts keeping pace with
Windows NT. If it is going to replace Windows, it is going to have to keep up with it.
The first version of NT didn't have the same features that ReactOS will when the first version of ReactOS comes out. The current target for ReactOS 1.0 will target Windows 2000/XP/Server 2003 functionality, as far as I know. (To the best of my knowledge, different parts of the operating system are targeted at the functionality of different versions of Windows.) Thus, if we hit beta by 2010 (early 2011, if we hit delays), we'll have a stable operating system targeting where Windows was at around 2000/2001. Windows NT was seven years old in 2000, or, if you're comparing to WIndows Server 2003, ten years old in 2003. In the eleven years that ReactOS has been in development we'll have made similar progress in the same time span. Once we hit beta, ReactOS will be a far more stable environment. When the core of the operating system is stable, then you can focus on the niceties. Sure, Windows NT released it's first version in 1993, but it had nowhere near the functionality that the first version of ReactOS will have. When you compare the time that ReactOS is spending in development to the dev time that versions of Windows had, it's not that much worse. In short, you can't compare Windows NT 3.1 functionality to ReactOS 1.0 functionality.

Even Windows NT 4 acts goofy in VirtualBox compared to ReactOS right now. When I last ran Windows NT 4 on real hardware, I had to download drivers and installers from another computer, burn then to a CD-RW (since there was no buit-in USB support in NT until Windows 2000), and install from that disk unless I wanted to have 16-color display, no sound, and crippled Internet via Internet Explorer 4, since it was so old it wouldn't allow me to download the Firefox install file within Internet Explorer. ReactOS ran true-color without any fancy display drivers, and if I can get a networking card installed (I haven't tried it yet, my bad, but apparently some networking cards work), I should be able to have Internet access with nowhere near the hassle that NT 4 gave me. The only gripe now is poor sound card support and nonexistent USB, though I could at least test software in ReactOS without using install and driver files from an external source, which I couldn't do with NT 4. And this is comparing NT 4 to ReactOS 0.3.7, which is outdated now.
nute wrote:ReactOS explorer needs to be replaced, most of the buttons do nothing.

Browsing the start menu in ReactOS there is still a rendering issue.
ReactOS Explorer is due to be replaced by 0.4.0. Explorer_new doesn't currently run in ReactOS, but it's on the schedule. Trust me, I'm looking forward to it myself. I don't like ReactOS Explorer's current state, either.
nute wrote:Networking is still sluggish.

Network neighborhood is cloned in Linux but doesn't exist yet in ReactOS.
I find that strange.
ReactOS is cloning Window's Network Neighborhood. I imagine that Linux made their own from scratch. Reverse-engineering software is inherently more difficult than writing from scratch. The devs probably know more about that than I do, though.
nute wrote:ReactOS can't run programs like Warcraft II BNE including the map editor.

ReactOS can run the Diablo II demo, but not the commercial program as far as I know.
I have a copy for when it will work as a milestone test.
I test a lot of game software on ReactOS too. When I'm testing software, I try to target the most basic software to test ReactOS's current capabilities, and then I proceed to try software that uses more modern Windows components. SkiFree works, cool. I'll test Cave Story. Okay, it runs and renders graphics properly, but fullscreen is botched and the controls are laggy. DirectDraw and DirectInput are probably to blame, so if another piece of software is more high-end than Cave Story, it probably won't run well. When Cave Story works well then I can expect higher end software to work.

I'm left wondering if there's some shared piece of software that Diablo II and Warcraft II are running that is blowing up in ReactOS, so I can keep tabs for compatibility testing purposes. I'll have to do a bit of research when I get the time.

If you haven't already, be sure to file Compatibility Reports.
nute wrote:ReactOS is seemingly a mess still, but that's okay for alpha quality software. What is
not okay for many people is waiting for ReactOS to stabilize if it is not going to in any
reasonable amount of time.
What is a reasonable amount of time, in your opinion?
nute wrote:I would like to see this thread move towards a discussion of why this project is worth it
and where it may progress to in 6 months to a year from now. In 2011, what will the
ReactOS community have? Why should I or anyone else for that matter believe in the
ReactOS project when it isn't even possible to ask about the next major release without
being labeled as a troll? What is so wrong about wanting information about every
major release, especially when there is a delay? If anything, asking about one release
after the next after the next should demonstrate how closely I and perhaps other people
as well are trying to follow ReactOS.
There's nothing wrong with asking about information about every new release, though I would preferably check the mailing lists and such before I asked any redundant questions to save the devs some time. I've asked Ged and Z98 on these forums about what's being worked on at the moment and they're not pissy about it just as long as it's done politely. The issue is that when you ask, every single time you accuse the ReactOS project of imploding in on itself. I don't accuse the developers of not developing fast enough because coding an operating system is damn complex work, and I respect that they take their time to do it, especially without pay.
nute wrote:If people could stop calling me a troll and start moving this thread toward the more useful discussion
of "Why is ReactOS worthwhile despite the delays," that would be very much appreciated.
http://www.reactos.org/en/about_whyreactos.html
This might help. It doesn't bash Linux, either.

swight
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by swight » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:17 pm

At the point of the move to the OffTopic section the discussion seemed to be more focused on comparing ReactOS to linux than on "ReactOS 0.3.11 progress". Even before that the topic from the discussion seemed to be on release proceedures and how information is provided more than the state of the 0.3.11. Before this everyone got a little heated about the "dying" comment, this comment could be somewhat justified depending on the lack of information it was based on and I think we may need to look into eliminating this feeling but that deserves another topic(maybe include it in a how information is provided thread). Some of these topics would have done much better in a separate thread that was actually on these topics. I get this much just reading to the point that this was moved to OffTopic going backwards to the beginning.

Also this is not only targeted at nute, there were many cases in this thread where others contributed to the offtopic-ness of this thread.

From what I gathered an appropriate response at the beginning might of been something like this.

The 0.3.11 is actually almost ready but it is being held up by a bug that is proving difficult to solve described here. While this bug is being solved others have been hard at work improving other areas as evidenced by http://cia.vc/stats/project/ReactOS. And firefox does not seem to be a blocker for 0.3.11 when I looked in bugzillza here(Version specific search result link). As to the developers using the forum, that may be best discussed in a topic dedicated to the subject.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:32 pm

My apologies for saying that ReactOS is dying. Still, the time to reach beta is a concern.
I can't help but wonder with 0.3.11 taking as long as it is to come out if there are more
blockers between 0.3.11 and 0.5.0 that are going to delay reaching beta.

I'm not questioning that writing an OS is hard work, especially when the decisions of
how to do this or that are not exactly your own. The question really is, is the task so
challenging that it's not reasonable to take it on? A reasonable amount of time seems
to be before Windows 7 and WIndows Server 2008 become passee. A more reasonable
time is ASAP because Windows XP is fast moving into the ancient category and WIndows
Server 2003 has already been replaced.

Is the amount of work to make a free Windows compatible OS more than the amount of
work it would take to make Linux versions of popular programs? How much more? As
far as the the developers have lives comment, I don't see why as much as people can
profit from a Windows alternative that runs the same software on the same hardware
for free why they aren't paid at all. The ReactOS foundation should be able to raise
more funds, especially if it can predict that the funding will allow it to reach certain
milestones by certain dates.

The promise of ReactOS is highly dependent on the abilities of the developers to write
and debug a Windows compatible OS. Linux has the advantage of being a wholly different
OS where compatibility is more of an afterthought. There are advantages to being
incompatible with WIndows. One advantage is that their is a lower probability of inheriting
Windows viruses and worms. Another advantage, poor decisions that Microsoft made don't
have to be duplicated. This is not to say that their wouldn't be a benefit to having an open
source version of Windows NT to complement Linux.

I ran a Linux server when my family was limited to dial-up and wvdial worked flawlessly.
I'm sorry if NetZero's Linux support was poor. That is NetZero's fault, not Linux's.

Maybe it's high time for the ReactOS foundation to do a major fund raising effort and pay a
programmer or two. ReactOS could be someone's day job if they were paid enough to make
it so.

b4dc0d3r
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:17 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by b4dc0d3r » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:28 am

nute, most of your points have been raised before. You seem to have previous project management experience and are watching this project with that bias. You may not, but you seem to. We don't have customers, nor do we have commitments. I agree that it's hard to look through all of the documentation and see how soon a release is coming - that's the point, no one knows. Anyone can post helpful info to a bug report, or join IRC to offer suggestions.

Failing to meet release dates is better than the alternative, as an example KDE 4 is getting kicked all over the place and finally fixed most of the issues. Most posts I've seen have said it would have been better for them to simply not ship 4.0 until it was ready.

Everyone knows paid developers would help, and no one is arguing that point. If you'd like to help with funding I'm sure people would appreciate it - after all, someone has to blaze the trail. Corporations won't because it's easier to have a support package with Microsoft and have bugs fixed directly, instead of hiring people to rewrite the whole thing. In general, business prefers outsourcing whenever possible, leading to Linux support contracts which provide money for development.

As an aside, Linux started in 1991 as a copy of Minix, which was a minimal version of Unix. The fluke of having a Unix-like kernel and plenty of GNU software for Unix starting in 1983 means that by 1993, 10 years later, Yggdrasil was available for purchase. After 20 years, in 2003, Linux was fairly well established. It had the advantage of being a popular free platform for comp sci majors to practice and learn, as was the initial intent of Minix. So the current timeline doesn't seem too bad.

You might not realize it, but pretty much all of your points have been brought up before. There are a lot of complaints about Microsoft's implementation of the Windows design, failing to note that ReactOS will implement the APIs differently. This is the whole point of the project, and agrees with your observation: "I'm not thrilled with Microsoft saying, every time they release a new version of Windows, that they have solved all the problems that the last version had." So is everyone else.

Lots of comments setting up ROS as a competition - against Linux, against Windows, against other open-source operating systems. It's not a contest, and people have different opinions or those projects wouldn't exist. More comparisons between Linux and Windows functionality and architecture, irrelevant. This seems to be the polarizing subject. Your comments on the subject read like a "Concern Troll". That means it seems you're pretending to be on one side, but raising points that you're concerned about in order to sway people towards an opposing viewpoint. Starting with: "It is hard for me to say that ReactOS is a better approach to providing a Microsoft WIndows alternative than say Syllable, Linux, etcetera." It's hard because it's not for you to say. It's for whomever feels like doing whatever with their free time. It sounds like you're trying to convince people to stop working on this, which of course is bothersome. Since you objected to such an accusation before I've included quotes below.
"Is it worth the frustration that will unavoidably be involved to make ReactOS what everyone wants it to be? Surely another option is to improve Linux, get more people to write software for Linux, and create an interface that feels like Windows." "I hate to see so much talent poured into ReactOS if it is going to be too late in the end. This effort would be better spent perhaps studying why people don't like Linux and working on the problems there or maybe it would be better spent on an OS like Syllable." "Honestly, at what point is hoping ReactOS will be a free alternative to run important Windows programs foolishness? There is a limit to how long anyone hoping this OS will be useful to them can wait for it."
I really think that's why people have a hard time with your posts. "Concern Troll" type comments are the opposite of help, and when someone can't pinpoint what it is about your comments that bothers them, they tend to just pick it to pieces. I've identified what bothers me, and although I don't feel I'm speaking for anyone else, placing a label on something usually helps people organize information.

I hope this helps your understanding of what's happening in this and other threads, and others as well.

Haos
Test Team
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Contact:

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Haos » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:16 am

@nute

As i said before... yes we have set goals close to impossible and we are probably wasting your time. Same as you waste our.
How many developers are there working on ReactOS right now? How many hours a week do you dedicate
to working on it on average? How many of those hours would you say are productive on average? How many
hours do you think it will take at the rate the developers are working on ReactOS to reach a beta quality OS?
Hello? Do you need same answers again? No one is currently working on ReactOS in your understanding of this work. This project is *again* being done for fun in people`s spare time. No one has any set hours, so its impossible to predict how many hours will be spent. There is some boring stuff like home, school or work, lurking by.

You cannot quantify productivity. Sometimes there are dull, boring tasks, taking ages, another time - swift, quick feature implementation. You would need to quantify all the research being done, troubleshooting, debugging, as well as pure luck. Its bloody impossible.

How many hours ReactOS needs before reaching beta quality? NO ONE BLOODY KNOWS!

THERE ARE NO PREDICTIONS. THERE WILL BE NONE! This project is too complex and too many variables need to be counted in before reaching ANY result in scope of YEARS, not to mention anything more precise.

Your questions are pointless *again*. You are, stupidly or deliberately, asking questions no one can really answer. If you *really* want to know anything about the project, you have picked the one of the few ways i can imagine, leading to a dead end.
When will you understand futility of this approach and either change it or just leave by?

vicmarcal
Test Team
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by vicmarcal » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:48 am

Ok,Ok....
Nute:
We are hiding ReactOS 1.0 from public until we are sure we didnt regress anything. We have uploaded it to rapidshare.We have added some security to avoid people download it.
See here. Just solve the captcha and download it.
Image

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:57 am

When are the people working on ReactOS as a hobby going to realize that a project of this nature needs more attention than what people generally give to a hobby? Yes a prediction can be made based on how much time on average the developers spend working on ReactOS and how productive that time tends
to be on how long it will take to reach beta, but that would require cooperation from the developers. One of the biggest criticisms of open source volunteer efforts is that they don't get anything done because there is no time pressure and limited commitment. People often believe that the Bazaar model
of software development is simply chaos and that the cathedral method is the only way to go. Right now, ReactOS development seems to be chaos that isn't
coming together very quickly. The foundation should be trying to raise a realistic amount of money and it should be paying some people to guide the ReactOS project. I refuse to believe that it is impossible to raise the kind of money needed to pay a programmer. Microsoft has a monopoly over computer software
and computer operating systems. There is a LOT of money being shelled out by people to Microsoft. If even a fraction of that money went to ReactOS
development efforts, it would be a lot. A prediction can be made using proper statistical methods on an adequate amount of information. A ReactOS that
doesn't stabilize in the next 2-5 years doesn't do anyone any good.

The web site should list how much money is needed per day to hire a person to work on ReactOS. If people find out that their donation goes toward speeding
up development, they are more likely to donate. This must not be a very desirable hobby if the developers aren't finding enough time to work on it.

hto
Developer
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Post by hto » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:55 am

nute wrote: If people could stop calling me a troll and start moving this thread toward the more useful discussion […]
Use one thread for one question. Just as in a bug tracker: one bug report for one bug.

Now, most of your posts consist of lengthy lists of many questions, interspersed with different statements. I think it is very hard to deal with this style of writing. If you really want to receive answers to the questions, not just to idly fill the forums with unneeded stuff, please discuss one thing at a time, or a few things in their own separate threads.

When discussing one thing, avoid talking about any side issues, and do not make any unrelated statements. What "when ReactOS 0.3.11 will be released?" has to do with "why should ReactOS get more attention than Linux + Wine?" or with "networking is still sluggish"? Keep each thread strictly on topic.

You've said you're a computer scientist, but your current approach doesn't look very scientific. Even if each question by itself makes sense, a mixture of questions is senseless. Scientists tend to discuss problems in order. It is uneducated people who like to lump matters together, and trolls.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:06 am

"A mixture of questions is senseless..."

This is an informal forum. ReactOS progress encompasses many questions as a topic of interest.
In regards to progress, one can talk about whether or not this project is still worth the effort.
One can also discuss what does and does not work at this time.
What shouldn't be on here are comments that are intended to insult people. Doing so is
unprofessional and likely to scare some people off.

A prediction on when the beta release is going to come out would be very useful, but making
a prediction without some detailed information about current progress is going to be difficult.
Sure progress could pick up or slow down in the near future, but there are ways to account for
that. You make an optimistic and a pessimistic prediction and average the two to get a
reasonable prediction hoping all along that things will come together sooner than predicted.
I can predict that ReactOS 0.3.11 will come out in December or tomorrow for that matter, but
this isn't a reasonable prediction if it isn't based on solid data. Hoping 0.3.11 will be released
tomorrow won't make it get released tomorrow.

ReactOS is promoted as a system people can not only replace Windows with eventually but as
a system that people can learn from. Who is going to want to touch ReactOS with a ten foot
pole if the developers are hostile towards questions?

The only thing I have said in this thread that I take back is that ReactOS is dying.

As far as asking about features in order... Wait a minute, they are features and not necessarily
dependent on one another in a hierarchical relationship. Is disk checking and defragmentation
dependent for example on networking features? Probably not. There may be some areas of
overlap such as memory management and the like, but ReactOS could have disk features and
not have networking features. As such, there is no particular order to ask about disk features
verses network features.

People have a lot of faith in ReactOS stabilizing but yet they can't even explain why they believe
that the delay for 0.3.11 is not a long term delay. Why aren't people willing to talk about why they
believe that ReactOS is ultimately going to come together say in a year or so? Are the developers
making more progress over time? Are the developers working on ReactOS for like 2 hours a week
or is some serious time being put into the development effort?

As far as the, "a mixture of questions is senseless," gripe I disagree. The lack of information on ReactOS's
progress encourages asking questions in the absence of answers. There are many questions to ask and many
types of questions to ask. Yes I can ask why developers don't want to work on Linux programs instead of
ReactOS in hope that they will say something like, "we are making good progress and believe that we will
be supporting more programs soon."

vicmarcal
Test Team
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by vicmarcal » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:31 am

nute wrote:"A mixture of questions is senseless..."

This is an informal forum.

Nute,you said you wish ReactOS follow a formal and serious development.So the first thing you can do is trying to consider this Forum as a formal one.
nute wrote: As far as the, "a mixture of questions is senseless," gripe I disagree. The lack of information on ReactOS's
progress encourages asking questions in the absence of answers. There are many questions to ask and many
types of questions to ask.
Asking questions because lack of information is not senseless, but asking them all together in one thread(mixing Networking,general development,ReactOS Health and Linux) is senseless and it is much more senseless when you reask again and again in the same thread because there arent answers to them. There are questions in the world that doesnt have answers, or that the answers hasnt been discovered: are there many Universes?Is the Schrödinger's cat dead or alive inside the box?
Can we give possible and estimated dates about when 1.0 or 0.5 is going to be released?Maybe.Why dont say it?Because if we dont release when we have stimated, then people as you will come here and ask "Why isnt it released yet?".This has happened when we tried to have an stimated roadmap and when you came here asking where is 0.3.11.So sorry,no estimations.
nute wrote: Yes I can ask why developers don't want to work on Linux programs instead of
ReactOS in hope that they will say something like, "we are making good progress and believe that we will
be supporting more programs soon."
I think they would say: "Because i want to work on ReactOS and not on Linux".
They work in the OS they prefer,and their answers wont point you to anything useful.
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Haos
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Re: Nute's Private Playground

Post by Haos » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:54 am

*Again* This is not a commercial project, in your meaning of this word. There will no prediction. There will be no "serious approach" in your meaning of this phrase. This is a goddam hobby, spare time project. Accept it or fork and do it your way.

nute
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Re: Nute's Private Playground

Post by nute » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:21 am

I don't appreciate people taking God's name in vain. I also don't appreciate people setting the subject of
a thread up in such a way that it is meant to insult me. So this is just a hobby, well noone should get angry
about being asked about their hobby. Being asked for information about your hobby should be seen as
a form of flattery, not an insult.

EmuandCo
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Re: Nute's Private Playground

Post by EmuandCo » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:38 am

Asking questions is OK, but your "Hey you do it wrong and too slow and you are all stupid" way IS insultive! If you dont or dont want to understand, please leave, because we dont need any troublemakers! Go to Syllable telling them they are not coding fast enough. thx
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ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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