Nute's Private Playground

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, drop it in here. (not to be used as a chat/nonsense section)

Moderator: Moderator Team

RaX
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:18 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaX » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:59 am

I haven't posted in awhile...

Both linux and windows are monolithic in kernel architecture.

Now that that little fact is known, we can continue to try to explain how each architecture is superior to the other. I may be a cynic, but at least I'm not a hypocrite bashing other projects for doing exactly what I'm doing.

You know what guys? Let's all get angry about the exokernel and why a viable commercial alternative hasn't been brought to market yet. In fact, let's go get mad at the 2-3 developers over at xomb who are working for free to bring that dream to light. While we're at it, let's all suppose why running flash on linux uses insane amounts of processing power. Either option is an alternative to learning how to design systems implementations and, you know, helping. Or even donating so that the poor starving open source developers can eat!

In other words, nute, nut up or shut up. I'll be your hounding voice of reason because I like eating trolls.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:34 am

First off, when have I said emphatically that Linux is better or Windows is
better? I haven't.

As far as arguing that it isn't worth it to write software for Linux, say that to
http://www.mygamecompany.com which is.

Yes there is a large software base for Windows, for WIndows. Right now, that
large Windows software base is NOT ReactOS's software base and that is okay.

As far as arguing that it is impractical to write software for Linux and yet
practical to write a clone of Windows, neither one of these assertions is
certain. I would like to hear from the developers with it being November 13
and still no 0.3.11 why they think ReactOS is practical. I think it is silly to
compare apples and oranges and that people should stop doing this.

I see Linux becoming very practical as a Desktop OS and very easy to install.
Hopefully, ReactOS will pick up those WIndows applications that just do not
and will not work in Linux no matter what you do. Linux doesn't have to be
designed to mistakes such as putting the GUI in ring 0. On a server, running
untrusted code in kernel mode is a mistake. Linux has never been hobbled
by the drive letters concept. I'm sure there are many other positive aspects
of Linux that you don't see in Windows, the least of which is that you don't
have to activate Linux.

Efforts to increase the amount of Linux software and make ReactOS work with
Windows software can progress in parallel. There is no need for these efforts
to be mutually exclusive nor is there any need for one effort to win out over
the other.

This show stopper for 0.3.11, how serious a bug is this? If this bug doesn't get
fixed, how will that affect ReactOS from a practicality standpoint? It's no
secret that ReactOS is taking a long time to stabilize and it's no secret that
most people want to be able to use it every day which means that a beta
or better quality release of ReactOS is needed.

user312
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by user312 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:04 am

nute wrote:This show stopper for 0.3.11, how serious a bug is this? If this bug doesn't get
fixed, how will that affect ReactOS from a practicality standpoint? It's no
secret that ReactOS is taking a long time to stabilize and it's no secret that
most people want to be able to use it every day which means that a beta
or better quality release of ReactOS is needed.
If you would bother to subscribe to the ros-dev mail list (or simply read the ros-dev archives) as I've seen suggested in the past, you would find this:

http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ ... 12297.html

Which is in regards to this bug:

http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4934

However, you might also be interested in this:

http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4959

If you really want to know what's going on and don't want to use IRC or subscribe to a mailing list, simply browse here periodically to find out what's going on:

http://www.reactos.org/en/community_mailinglists.html

The ros-dev, ros-bug, and ros-diffs archives are the more pertinent ones.
Last edited by user312 on Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

hto
Developer
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:43 pm

Post by hto » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:08 am

and it's no secret that most people want to be able to use it every day which means that a beta or better quality release of ReactOS is needed.
it's no secret that more developers are needed for that.

RaX
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:18 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaX » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:12 pm

nute, I don't think you understand. Either you write code to fix the bugs that are preventing the release, or you shut up. This is not commercial software where you pay for people to listen to your opinion. This is open source where trolls are scorned and only the noble survive.

I don't know why you can't understand that the developers are there because they want to be. You can try to hold a whip behind them all you want but doing so will only hurt the project. I'm sorry you never learned patience as a child but you're going to have to now like the rest of us that are either too lazy, too stupid, or too busy to help out.

Reporting bugs is a good thing! Bringing up that a bug exists over and over until it gets fixed is a good thing! Reprimanding the developers for not working hard enough when you yourself don't do ANYTHING for the project is not a good thing.

b4dc0d3r
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:17 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by b4dc0d3r » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:18 pm

Maybe this thread is off-topic enough that it is not the right place to post anymore but...

I have been watching a lot of activity on the CIA server (below), and lots of little nibbling fixes are going in. Maybe no one has figured out the showstoppers yet, but the activity shows the next release will be piles better than current. It is like a Thanksgiving turkey - lots of care and attention, and it will be done when it's done. Lots of improvements in the side dishes as well. Networking is starting to look very promising, and it looks like the headers/SDK issues are gradually getting stomped out.

Simply wanted to show some encouragement here, it is fascinating to watch little changes add up to something that works.

http://cia.vc/stats/project/reactos/

user312
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by user312 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:50 pm

b4dc0d3r wrote:I have been watching a lot of activity on the CIA server (below), and lots of little nibbling fixes are going in. Maybe no one has figured out the showstoppers yet, but the activity shows the next release will be piles better than current. It is like a Thanksgiving turkey - lots of care and attention, and it will be done when it's done. Lots of improvements in the side dishes as well. Networking is starting to look very promising, and it looks like the headers/SDK issues are gradually getting stomped out.
True enough, but keep in mind that not all the "nibbling" is happening in the trunk. There's quite a lot going on in pierre-fsd, ros-amd64-bringup, and arwinss at the moment. Still important work going on, but not changes that we'll see in the trunk builds for a while. But, as always, there's lots of commits daily and things are constantly improving!

Edit - talk about progress:

http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ ... 33906.html

"Fixes bug 4955 and 4434" which are both on the 0.3.11 release bugs list (http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4959)

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:12 am

Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the soup. It may be that more developers wouldn't
help right now. As far as whipping anyone, I dare say how can anyone do that remotely?
I realize ReactOS 0.3.11 will be finished when it gets finished, but there is a lot to talk
about concerning how long it is taking to get it finished. The ReactOS community seems
to be of the opinion that this effort is worth it and it needs to be to continue work, but
is it really worth it if major releases take 3-4 more months than hoped? At first the
expectation for 0.3.11 was September. It slipped to October. Now it is November. Maybe,
just maybe, a lot of the problems surrounding what is stopping 0.3.11 are getting fixed
and this means that 0.4.0 will come out sooner than hoped. Maybe there'll be a breakthough
and bugs will get crushed left and right. On the other hand, the progress going forward
might be slow and painfully so at that. What ReactOS is targeting is getting older by the
minute and the software ReactOS will eventually run may disappear by the time it
stabilizes. Programs that are popular today may not stay popular long enough for people
to want to run them in ReactOS.

ReactOS needs highly talented developers.

ReactOS needs time, it doesn't have a lot if you really think about this.

ReactOS needs corporate support, but it isn't stable enough to attract any.

As far as being impatient or being a child that never learned patience, patience is
a virtue and there is a time for it. Thing is, telling people to be patient should not
be an excuse to ignore the question of whether or not this effort to make a Windows
compatible OS that is free is still worth it.

Let's look at what has happened since the ReactOS project came into existence.
Windows XP, 2003, 2008, Vista, and 7 have come out. That are at least 5 new versions
of NT since ReactOS targeted Windows NT 4. If ReactOS takes more than 2-4 years to
stabilize, will it have to compete with WIndows 8? Open source software can keep
up with proprietary software, but for that to happen your project needs to attract
enough talent for long enough.

I understand the appeal of a free alternative to Windows that runs the same software
and feels the same. Thing is, this project is looking like it may very well be 5,10,15,
or more years away from stabilization. Freedos is pretty stable now, but a lot of
people say and they are probably correct about this that it came too late. I hate to
see so much talent poured into ReactOS if it is going to be too late in the end. This
effort would be better spent perhaps studying why people don't like Linux and
working on the problems there or maybe it would be better spent on an OS like
Syllable.

As far as the don't complain here comments, look at the mailing lists. I have. It is
hard to figure out what is going on exactly from them. A bug filing doesn't necessary
include enough detail for a stranger to understand what the bug is.

It is hard to predict how soon ReactOS will reach Beta let alone the coveted 1.0 release.

It is hard to predict what Windows programs ReactOS will support.

It is hard to predict how soon ReactOS will get corporate sponsorship.

It is hard for me to say that ReactOS is a better approach to providing a Microsoft WIndows
alternative than say Syllable, Linux, etcetera.

In all areas it seems, ReactOS has problems. Networking is sluggish and unstable. Memory
management is clearly not complete yet. The interface and explorer need revamping.
Program support is shaky and limited. Yes ReactOS is in alpha state and not recommended
for everyday use. It is hard to see progress, especially when a major release is perhaps
a month or so out when it was hoped that the release would hit 2 months ago. Does
patience mean that ReactOS is not to be expected to stabilize any time soon? Honestly,
at what point is hoping ReactOS will be a free alternative to run important Windows
programs foolishness? There is a limit to how long anyone hoping this OS will be useful
to them can wait for it. Obviously, people should be charitable by being willing to wait
a long time. I have been following this project since 2006. Being patient for more than
a year at this point seems like a long time to wait for a Beta or better release.

XP is the last version of WIndows I want to deal with and I'd prefer not to deal with XP
even. I don't like activation and I think Microsoft's plan for updating is a pain. I don't
like the idea that my computer will calculate whether or not I can do something with
it based on arbitrary third party inputs. I'm not thrilled with Microsoft saying, every
time they release a new version of Windows, that they have solved all the problems
that the last version had.

hto
Developer
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:43 pm

Post by hto » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:40 am

Does patience mean that ReactOS is not to be expected to stabilize any time soon?
Yes.

user312
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:57 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by user312 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:50 am

nute wrote:Let's look at what has happened since the ReactOS project came into existence.
Windows XP, 2003, 2008, Vista, and 7 have come out. That are at least 5 new versions
of NT since ReactOS targeted Windows NT 4.
Although I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, I'll leave it as is as this conversation has been had repeatedly already. I will however straighten out some facts with regards to "new versions of NT". You seem to be mixing up server vs desktop versions of NT with different core versions of "NT" so just to clarify things a bit for you here's a little rundown of NT version to OS for you:

NT 5.1 = Windows XP (desktop)
NT 5.2 = Windows XP (pro 64bit) (desktop) = Windows 2003 (server)
NT 6.0 = Windows Vista (desktop) = Windows 2008 (server)
NT 6.1 = Windows 7 (desktop) = Windows 2008 R2 (server)

If you need more info, Google is your friend...

RaptorEmperor
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:05 am

user312 wrote:
nute wrote:Let's look at what has happened since the ReactOS project came into existence.
Windows XP, 2003, 2008, Vista, and 7 have come out. That are at least 5 new versions
of NT since ReactOS targeted Windows NT 4.
Although I disagree with a lot of what you wrote, I'll leave it as is as this conversation has been had repeatedly already. I will however straighten out some facts with regards to "new versions of NT". You seem to be mixing up server vs desktop versions of NT with different core versions of "NT" so just to clarify things a bit for you here's a little rundown of NT version to OS for you:

NT 5.1 = Windows XP (desktop)
NT 5.2 = Windows XP (pro 64bit) (desktop) = Windows 2003 (server)
NT 6.0 = Windows Vista (desktop) = Windows 2008 (server)
NT 6.1 = Windows 7 (desktop) = Windows 2008 R2 (server)

If you need more info, Google is your friend...
It's good that you thought to look that up, User312. If you compare the version numbers of Windows NT, ReactOS really isn't being developed at a much slower rate than Windows NT is, which is pretty nifty considering we only have a fraction of the developers. Windows has barely went up a single version number in a decade, when you consider that Windows 2000 was NT 5.0. ReactOS generally increments about 0.1 versions every 14 months, which if you do the math probably isn't much slower than the rate at which Windows NT is developed.

While ReactOS should be developed at a faster pace to catch up to at least Windows 2000 functionality, in my opinion, it is still closer to a true open-source replacement for Windows than trying to convince commercial software developers that Linux is a viable desktop platform. Linux isn't going to replace Windows anytime soon, because it doesn't run Windows applications and drivers. Wine is limited by the OS it's running on, and trying to convince people otherwise when it hasn't worked since Linux first came out is kind of pointless. The only reason Linux is as far as it is is because it picked up momentum. Instead of whining about how the momentum will never come, Nute find out a way to make some.

Nute, I do try to be somewhat fair, and I don't join in the "write code or shut up" mentality that some people carry during these disputes, but trying to convince ReactOS devs and users that ReactOS is a pointless project on the ReactOS forums is as logical as me trying to go to Ubuntu forums and convince people that Linux is a failed OS and that they're wasting their time developing anything for Linux. The people on these forums are people who are already interested in the OS, whether Linux or ReactOS, and spending all your time on the forums isn't going to convert anyone to your side.

RaX
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:18 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaX » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:25 pm

Yeah...I guess my problem was that I went and investigated nute's previous posts and they contain this same argument. I do subscribe to the philosophy of "write code or shut up" when dealing with trolls.

RaptorEmperor
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:46 pm

I get irritated too, but I try to be as courteous as possible because there might be new people that hop on here and see people talking down to Nute, and assume that the whole community is going to jump on them if they ask a question. If someone were to hop on these forums today and browse through this, they might not know that Nute has rambled on about release dates, for every release, for a while now. I do try to be polite in case Nute does really want a logical answer, but I do it more to keep other people from being scared away from the project. I still remember when there was all the infighting over who saw what Windows source code a few years back and it got pretty heated. I nearly got scared away from the project, except that I was still too interested in seeing an open-source Windows clone to abandon my interest that easily.

RaX
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:18 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaX » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:07 pm

Pshhh, seriously, who reads the off-topic section first? =P

swight
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by swight » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:06 am

Thought I would point out that this thread was not originally in Off-Topic, but was moved here when the talk went off on a tangent.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Semrush [Bot] and 3 guests