Nute's Private Playground

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, drop it in here. (not to be used as a chat/nonsense section)

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RaptorEmperor
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Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:28 am

Ged wrote: If you can find the current blocker which results in installers hanging then we will release imediatley.
Here is the bug url : http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4934
Please come to IRC for more details.

The last thing on this list is proving _very_ difficult to fix as we don't yet know where the problem lies. This particular bug took us by suprise when testing for the 0.3.11 release. If it wasn't for this bug then it would have been released some time ago.
Ged.
Hey, Ged, if there's a bug in the installers that's hanging the release, is there anything that's being worked on in the meantime by the guys not tackling that bug, or is everyone working on that particular bug? I did read through the link to the patches list you posted, but it's lower-level stuff than I'm used to seeing and I can't quite understand what it's referring to. Even if 0.3.11 is being held up by a bug (which is understandable), I still find it exciting to know what's being worked on in the meantime.

I remember when I used to play RPG Maker 2 I had a bug in a cutscene that I spent at least a month on trying to fix. I realized that the game was causing the glitch instead of anything I had written, so I had to go back and rewrite the whole scene to avoid the bug. RPG Maker is more of a scripting language, but the point is bugs happen.

I would just ignore Nute. I don't get why he flames the forums if he's more interested in Linux anyway. Based on his postings, it seems like he's more interested in arguing than making a logical point.

Z98
Release Engineer
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Z98 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:33 am

A few people are trying to nail it, but others who work in areas that aren't likely to be causing the bug or don't know much about the areas that are probably the source of the issue continue with their own projects. Drafting more people in wouldn't do much good if they don't know where to look or don't know that particular part of ROS. And even if they did manage to fix it right now, we still wouldn't release immediately. Changelog is still hugely incomplete.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:17 am

I have not flamed the forums by asking people to refrain from knocking Linux.
I do not see asking about 0.3.11 as flaming either.

I never said that Linux is perfect for all applications, I merely asked that people
not badmouth it on here.

I am interested in ReactOS but not because I somehow think it is going to be
better than Linux. I'm interested in ReactOS being a drop-in replacement for
Windows NT. I'm also interested in more people writing software for Linux.

Frankly, I'd be happy with WINE working better so I don't have to switch OSes.

Linux has corporate sponsorship. ReactOS does not. Companies that sponsor
Linux do not want to be slapped in the face by a whiny ReactOS community that
hates Linux. Why should IBM divert resources from Linux to ReactOS? Can Dell
and HP even consider packaging ReactOS on their laptop offerings yet? At
least it's possible to get Linux preinstalled on a laptop in a world where
Microsoft clearly dominates.

As far as the GCC prejudice, learn to use it right or write your own free compiler
if you think you can do a better job.

Noone has bothered to comment on here on what the major bug is, that would be
far more constructive than bickering about that nute guy.

RaptorEmperor
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Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:41 am

I have a couple of minutes and nothing better to do, so I'll jump into the fray with Nute. :)

Nute, have you ever considered that different people have different opinions on things? Linux has issues just like Windows has. The point of ReactOS is that some people think that Windows has a stronger foundation than Linux. Just like how some people prefer one kind of pizza to another, people have differing opinions on to how an OS should be built. If you think that ReactOS is a waste of time and that the devs should be spending time on Linux instead, then state your opinion, understand theirs, and be done with it. You can't change people's opinions by barking at them.

I'm part of the ReactOS community and I don't hate Linux. Linux has some strengths. I just think that ReactOS will be better when its done. I have Ubuntu with Wine running in VirtualBox, and while I don't hate Ubuntu, Wine doesn't address all of my needs. So you think that Linux + Wine is better than ReactOS. Cool. Then help the Wine devs out. I think that dealing with a gazillion different incompatible installation packages between different Linux distros is BS (some distros use .rpm, some use .deb, some use .pkg, but never all of them), but I don't go on the Fedora forums bashing Linux because of it. We share code with Wine, so maybe you'll ultimately be more useful for all of us as a Wine tester. LUK might interest you, too.

I wouldn't characterize the ReactOS community as hating Linux. Some ReactOS devs work with the Wine project, and they have a friendly relationship with the Haiku team as well. You state that companies that sponsor Linux don't want to be slapped in the face by a whiny ReactOS community that hates Linux but I don't see you concerned about a whiny Linux community that hates Windows. I wouldn't characterize either side of the debate as being filled with hatemongers as you do. Most people have enough sense to realize OSes aren't a life or death matter. Unless you're talking about hospital equipment or something, but they probably run some high-end real-time OS none of us are familiar with anyway.

If you read the mailing lists, you'd see that the project is rather healthy. The way you describe ReactOS as a dying project you'd think the devs were turning on each other, when in reality there have been a number of new people joining in the project and it's slowly growing. You really need to quit worrying about 0.3.11. There's always trunk builds you can try, but they're just more unstable. 0.3.11 will come out sooner or later. Sometimes a release comes out on time, sometimes it's late, sometimes it's really late (we've had delays like this before, BTW, but we're all still here), and very rarely we get early releases. Some releases are really awesome compared to the last, and sometimes they come out kind of buggy. I'd rather have a late, awesome release than an early buggy release.

Z98
Release Engineer
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Z98 » Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:36 am

Right, maybe I wasn't being clear enough about this. And RaptorEmperor, you are not in trouble or anything so don't worry about the following.

My statement telling the three of you to stop this was not a suggestion or a request. It was effectively an order as a moderator. This is an opportunity to start with a clean slate as we implement the new mod system instead of carrying this baggage into it. I expect no further back and forth trying to "justify" anyone's position and I do not expect having to lock this thread to make sure of it. If you really can't control your urge to mouth off and get the last word, then you will be a problem that can only be dealt with by a ban. In fact, if you do decide to try and get a last word in, I will interpret that as a desire to be banned from this community. I expect no further posts in this thread to revolve around nute, Haos, and EmuandCo's back and forth. If you have a genuine question that hasn't already been answered, please feel free to post. If you simply have a desire to comment on the back and forth, don't.

nute
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:24 pm

"Usability effort: flawless browsing in Firefox 3, no winetest crashes "

Why does the roadmap still say exactly this if Firefox 3 being flawless is not on the
short list for 0.3.11?

Are there plans for a 0.3.12 at this point, or does that depend on how much is
accomplished when 0.3.11 comes out?

vicmarcal
Test Team
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by vicmarcal » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:43 pm

If 0.4 objectives are still the same, then a 0.3.12 is needed.
Image

nute
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:47 pm

RaptorEmperor, I will not say that ReactOS is better than Linux+WINE nor am I going to
say that Linux+WINE is better than ReactOS. I'd prefer to see both improve. The point
of ReactOS isn't that it is going to be better than all other OSes, at least that isn't the
point of it for a lot of people. I simply want a drop in replacement for Windows XP.
I have no intention of giving up Linux as a server system at this point. As far as a
desktop system goes though, ReactOS may eventually prove to be a better choice
than Linux in certain cases.

As far as the incompatible package management schemes argument as a criticism of
Linux, haven't you heard of alien and other efforts to make Linux distributions that use
one packaging format work with other Linux distributions package formats?

Making a free OS that is compatible with Windows applications and drivers is one and only
one approach to competing with Microsoft. Another approach is to write more software
for Linux or another OS other than ReactOS and Windows. The first approach may
be impractical. I will say though, once ReactOS becomes stable it will probably become
relevant as NT is probably going to stick around for a while longer.

When have I said that work on ReactOS is definitely a waste of time? I suspect it is
a waste of effort if it is going to take 5-10 more years to reach 1.0, but that is hopefully
a pessimistic prediction.

A thing people should be aware of is Linux Standards Base which attempts to minimize
the differences between Linux distributions so that programs can be written to work on
Linux instead of say Ubuntu or Redhat or Slackware.

Linux needs to improve still in some areas and it is improving, but improvement takes time.
Enterprise distributions of Linux are stable but lack features where bleeding edge distributions
are well, bleeding edge. It would be fair to say that operating systems in general are getting
easier to use and more powerful over time which includes ReactOS.

The question to debate is, is the amount of time it will take for ReactOS to become stable short
enough for ReactOS to have significant positive impacts on the OS landscape?

vicmarcal
Test Team
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by vicmarcal » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:14 pm

nute wrote: The question to debate is, is the amount of time it will take for ReactOS to become stable short
enough for ReactOS to have significant positive impacts on the OS landscape?
Just the existence of ReactOS is impacting on the OS landscape
Image

hto
Developer
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:43 pm

Post by hto » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:27 pm

nute wrote: I suspect it is a waste of effort if it is going to take 5-10 more years to reach 1.0, but that is hopefully a pessimistic prediction.
With the current speed of development, that's a realistic prediction. More people are needed…

tomleem
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by tomleem » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:47 pm

It would be neat to have schools that teach programming to have this as part of their course or as a project for them for extra points. :idea: (just thinking out loud :ugeek: ). 8-)
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Tom Lee M / BigGoofyGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Haos
Test Team
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Haos » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:40 am

When have I said that work on ReactOS is definitely a waste of time? I suspect it is
a waste of effort if it is going to take 5-10 more years to reach 1.0, but that is hopefully
a pessimistic prediction.
waste of effort == waste of time spent for said effort == waste of time

RaptorEmperor
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, United States

Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RaptorEmperor » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:22 am

Nute, I have heard to Linux Standards Base and Alien, but they're not 100% foolproof. In my Ubuntu virtual machine, I tried to install Alien and I couldn't get it to work. And when something doesn't work graphically, you have to use sudo commands and stuff, which is exactly why DOS is dead: people don't like command lines. There are people trying to improve Linux, and I commend that, but it's still not good enough for the average user IMO.
nute wrote:RaptorEmperor, I will not say that ReactOS is better than Linux+WINE nor am I going to
say that Linux+WINE is better than ReactOS. I'd prefer to see both improve. The point
of ReactOS isn't that it is going to be better than all other OSes, at least that isn't the
point of it for a lot of people. I simply want a drop in replacement for Windows XP.
I have no intention of giving up Linux as a server system at this point. As far as a
desktop system goes though, ReactOS may eventually prove to be a better choice
than Linux in certain cases.
Agreed. If I were running a server I'd probably use Linux too. ReactOS will ultimately make a better desktop OS, at least in my opinion. In reality, if I had enough hard drives, I would probably dual-boot Windows XP and Ubuntu, or even triple-boot Windows XP, Windows 7, and Ubuntu, because I'm crazy like that. I'll keep using ReactOS on my testbed machines, until it's stable enough to trust on more expensive, modern hardware. I'm looking forward to building my first working ReactOS box when we hit beta.
nute wrote:Making a free OS that is compatible with Windows applications and drivers is one and only
one approach to competing with Microsoft. Another approach is to write more software
for Linux or another OS other than ReactOS and Windows. The first approach may
be impractical. I will say though, once ReactOS becomes stable it will probably become
relevant as NT is probably going to stick around for a while longer.
People have been trying to make Linux relevant on the desktop since 1993 and it hasn't worked. The problem is that the only people making Linux apps are Linux enthusiasts, and it's such a small installed user base as opposed to Windows that it's not profitable to make Linux software as compared to Mac OS X or Windows. If we had the same number of programmers as Linux and Wine we could definitely pick up a lot faster and catch up to at least Windows 2000 functionality. Since I can't code well, I try to spread the word as much as possible, since maybe one of the people who ultimately hears about ReactOS might be capable of contributing code to the project.

The difference in opinion here is that you think making a open-source Windows is impractical, whereas most other people (myself included) here think that getting people to invest and develop for Linux is impractical. The issue is when you constantly bash the project based on your own beliefs that making an open-source Windows is impractical. When you come and make negative comments, naturally the devs that have but so much effort into making ReactOS work are going to get irritated, since they've put the most effort into the project. You can't expect them to have perfect manners 100% either, since they're programmers, not public relations people.

Z98 has stated that there's a single major bug that's holding up the release of 0.3.11. Development hasn't completely stopped in the meantime, and the people who are developing portions of ReactOS that don't involve that bug are working as usual in the meantime, just as they would had if we were officially at 0.3.11. You consistently complain about the timing of major releases when the real focus should be how the trunk builds are coming along.

MadWolf
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by MadWolf » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:30 am

hi
Linux, haven't you heard of alien and other efforts to make Linux distributions that use
one packaging format work with other Linux distributions package formats?
i have used alien imho it is a interesting idea but pointless if you do not want to learn how to compile the softwhere fore your distribution then use a distribution fore example PCLinuxOS that has a easy to use package manager

cruonit
Posts: 250
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by cruonit » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:25 am

http://cia.vc/stats/project/ReactOS

looks like a very productive day :) (13.11.2009)

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