Nute's Private Playground

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, drop it in here. (not to be used as a chat/nonsense section)

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livestrong2109
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by livestrong2109 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:41 pm

Madwolf has a good point here...
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fred02
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by fred02 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:46 pm

MadWolf wrote:hi

imho the best whay to stop threads like this is to create a stickied with the answers to the most commonly asked questions and if someone asks one of the questions that is in the most commonly asked questions stickie the threads get locked and a linkd is added to most commonly asked questions stickie and the form rules are updated to tell the users to read the commonly asked questions stickie before asking a question
I got a bit lost in all these repeated "questions", but I fully agree. A FAQ thread is needed to be pinned on top of the forum, in a (vain?) hope to reduce these reoccurring questions/threads by 3/4. (darn, I got contaminated by this "question" spread too :mrgreen: )

nute
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:18 pm

An open source project can die and ReactOS after all is the reincarnation of freewin95,
a now dead project, although the target these days is NT instead.

I didn't say that this project is dead, I said that it seems to be dying which is very different.

Concerning the comments that threads like this shouldn't exist, well there are no stickies
for people who want to ask about 0.3.11. The only reasonable action I've seen taken is
removing predictions from the ReactOS front page as to when 0.3.11 might come out.

I'm deeply concerned. The goal is to release every 2 months and yet that isn't happening.
Now why isn't it happening? Maybe there's a major bug that just isn't getting squashed.
Unfortunately, it seems just as likely that the developers of ReactOS aren't getting around
to deciding what needs to happen for a 0.3.11 release. People donating their time to a
project like this is great, but it's really sad that this isn't taking off like Linux did. Linux
was usable very early on. It was usable back in the 1990s. Redhat Colgate, remember
that, it's ancient history now and while it is primitive compared to Linux today it was
usable. People used to run Slackware 3.4 on 386s.

How many programmers capable of writing an OS are there that have worked on Linux?
Now then, how many of those people have worked on ReactOS? Maybe there's a perception
that the ReactOS community rejects the utility of Linux and thinks that a "real" free operating
system is needed which is turning a lot of people who could help off. Who is to say, aside
from poor driver support perhaps, that WINE + Linux isn't the way to go? I will admit that
Microsoft Word 2003 doesn't work correctly with my version of crossover Linux, but that
may be fixed in a newer version.

Optimistically speaking, maybe there will be a series of breakthroughs and a decision will
be made to skip 0.3.11 and go straight to 0.4.0. I get the impression to reach 0.4.0 though
that user interface improvements have to happen and networking has to smooth out.

One of the things to remember about ReactOS is that it's very existence is answering the
question how far can an open source community get creating a Windows compatible OS
that can use the same drivers and programs? If it looks like the community has bit off
more than it can chew and that reviving the FreeWin95 project and reorganizing to form
the ReactOS project was a mistake, I doubt that there will be enough developers to pick
up the pace going forward. Is it worth the frustration that will unavoidably be involved to
make ReactOS what everyone wants it to be? Surely another option is to improve Linux,
get more people to write software for Linux, and create an interface that feels like Windows.

I would like to see the ReactOS project pick up some paid programmers. Postfix is an open
source MTA that was paid for by IBM. IBM wanted a sendmail replacement and didn't care
to license it because that can cost a lot. Hence, Postfix was born. On a positive note, I'd
like to see ReactOS gain a major improvement that deserves a new release number every
2 months. I'd like to see ReactOS reach beta. If people really don't want to see any more
threads on ReactOS's current progress, then maybe there should be a sticky. Maybe there
should be an effort on the part of the community as a whole and the foundation to show that
ReactOS has a bright future. What work is being done to get ReactOS coming together in
a reasonable time frame?

Ged
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Ged » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:07 pm

Nute, your posts are very negative and I understand why everyone gets so annoyed with you.
Everyone seems to know the answer to pretty much every question you ask, except you.
I think the question as to why you don't know these answers is a bigger mystery as to why the 0.3.11 release was held back.

However, here some answers and comments to your questions
I didn't say that this project is dead, I said that it seems to be dying which is very different.
You can't judge a project status by asking questions in the forums. The development work isn't done here and frankly most developers have no desire to visit the forums.
In actual fact, the project has never been healthier. It's moving forward at very quick pace.
I'm not going to list everything that's happened in the past 6 months, if you're really interested you'll have to get out of the forums and follow the project correctly.
As a quick insight, here are all the patches which went into reactos last month : http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ ... hread.html
I'm sure you'll agree that this isn't the signs of a dying project
The only reasonable action I've seen taken is
removing predictions from the ReactOS front page as to when 0.3.11 might come out.
Reasonable?
The persistant moaning and critisizm has now resulted in us removing the one thing people rely on for release information.
I've no doubt it will return once the 0.3.11 issues are ironed out, but the fact is, we can't give you an xyz timescale on that.
However, development work continues at full speed.
I'm deeply concerned. The goal is to release every 2 months and yet that isn't happening.
Now why isn't it happening?
Because this is open source. You can't force people to do something.
The fact that you think the 0.3.11 release is the worlds most important thing doesn't mean everyone else does.
Also, maybe it's not happening becuase you aren't there to help us??
If you can find the current blocker which results in installers hanging then we will release imediatley.
Here is the bug url : http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4934
Please come to IRC for more details.
Unfortunately, it seems just as likely that the developers of ReactOS aren't getting around
to deciding what needs to happen for a 0.3.11 release.
We've decided exactly what needs to happen.
The last thing on this list is proving _very_ difficult to fix as we don't yet know where the problem lies. This particular bug took us by suprise when testing for the 0.3.11 release. If it wasn't for this bug then it would have been released some time ago.

This is the nature of software development. Windows Vista was 2 years late and they have thousands of developers working on that. Surely you must understand this by now? It's not like building a wall or driving to the shops and back where you can reliably predict how long it will take. Things happen which are very much out of our control and we must work hard to fix them.
How many programmers capable of writing an OS are there that have worked on Linux?
Now then, how many of those people have worked on ReactOS?
None. People who work on linux have no interest in developing for reactos. They are linux fans.
The same is true for me. I would rather not program at all than program for linux. It just doesn't interest me.
Who is to say, aside
from poor driver support perhaps, that WINE + Linux isn't the way to go?
In my case, I am.
If wine and linux was my only option then I would probably stop working on open source and find a new hobby instead.
When not being paid, people do what interests them. Nothing anyone can say is going to change that.
Optimistically speaking, maybe there will be a series of breakthroughs and a decision will
be made to skip 0.3.11 and go straight to 0.4.0. I get the impression to reach 0.4.0 though
that user interface improvements have to happen and networking has to smooth out.
Yes, you're right. 0.4.0 will see a big UI overhaul.
You'll be happy to know that this is coming along very well now and a lot of progress has been made in this area.
If you followed the project instead of only reading the forums then you would see this.
Is it worth the frustration that will unavoidably be involved to
make ReactOS what everyone wants it to be?
The only fustrated person appears to be you. Everyone else knows and understands the situation
Surely another option is to improve Linux,
get more people to write software for Linux, and create an interface that feels like Windows.
Who?
As I said, I would rather stop working on open source completley than work with linux.
It's not about the interface, it's about the architecture.
I would like to see the ReactOS project pick up some paid programmers.
I think we all would :)
However until we get good sponsorship this isn't going to happen/
Aleksey works very hard in this area though, so rest assured that this isn't being ignored and it will happen one day.
On a positive note
I had no idea you did positive notes ;)
I'd like to see ReactOS gain a major improvement that deserves a new release number every
2 months. I'd like to see ReactOS reach beta.
Wouldn't we all.
No one wants this more than the team who put all their available time into this project, only to see it critisized by you.

What work is being done to get ReactOS coming together in
a reasonable time frame?
Everything possible from our limited resources.


As a last note, there are people now requesting that you be removed from these forums.
I personally don't want to see this as I disaprove of any banning unless absolutley necessary.
However, you must understand as to why you are so disliked.
You come here as a person who does nothing to help the reactos community and consistantly critisize all those who do.

Anyway, there's going to be some changes made to forum rules in the way people speak and are spoken to.
We hope to make the forums a ncer and more helpful place to be.
Unfortunatley your current posts will fall foul to this new way of running things.
I sincerly hope you can alter your attitude and remain a member of the community :)


phew, answering your posts is tiring work. I think this will be my last ;)

Ged.

vicmarcal
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by vicmarcal » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:53 pm

Ged: +1
I hope Nute will change his atittude too, since seems this way of behaving isnt going to be tolerated after the changes in the Forum
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Haos » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:08 pm

Again, comparing to Linux is not really fair. Linux is only THE KERNEL. ReactOS is a whole-blown OS.

cruonit
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by cruonit » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:35 pm

@Ged a very good post it makes a nice picture of the current project status and plans

nute
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:47 am

Excuse me Ged, you never did mention in detail what it is that is stopping ReactOS 0.3.11 from
coming out.

Second off, if noone can predict when software is going to stabilize, it's doubtful that
new operating systems would ever get written.

Indeed there is the Syllable project, this project, and other projects. A healthy number of projects
I might add. The difference between this project and most other OS writing projects though is that
the other projects appear to be more stable at the moment. Another difference is that the people
working on the other projects do not seem to be prejudiced against Linux or any other operating
system for that matter. Windows seems to be treated by this community as if it is the ONLY
OS that matters. I'm not convinced that Windows is a stable platform despite what this community
says. Why does Windows 7 need 4-6 gigabytes of ram to run stably? Who is to say that a truly
compatible clone of 7 is going to take less memory? There are comments that ReactOS takes
very little memory to run, but what does that matter if that is going to change dramatically soon?
Yes ReactOS can save on resource usage by not adopting a graphics intensive user interface,
but is that the only reason why the new Windows hogs memory?

Go ahead Ged, ban me. Protect your fantasy world where anything you don't have the answer to
is a negative criticism and inappropriate. I never said that the ReactOS project is dead, but it is
dying. Missing the 2 month release cycle by 2-3 months is not a positive development. If this
continues to happen time and time again, this project will be moving pretty slowly if at all in the
future. I'm not saying this to insult the developers, but the reality is that ReactOS cannot attract
corporate sponsorship and the reason why is pretty obvious. It is the tone of these forums that
points to the major problem. There are a lot of people it seems in the Linux community who hate
ReactOS and vice versa. This has to change for this project to take off. ReactOS is not going to
replace Linux. Windows has never been as good a server system as a Unix style systems.
ReactOS's strength, if it ever stabilizes, is that Windows has been and potentially always will be a
stronger desktop system than Unix style OS'es. Pissing people off who use and depend on Linux
is not going to attract more people to ReactOS.

Aleskey has a hard job getting corporate sponsorship if the community is scaring corporations off.

Instead of banning someone from the forums for "asking too many questions," maybe it would be
wiser to reevaluate the policy of keeping everything that is in the forums indefinitely.

RideBMX
Posts: 76
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by RideBMX » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:48 am

Excuse me Ged, you never did mention in detail what it is that is stopping ReactOS 0.3.11 from coming out.
If you took some time to look around the site, you would already know what is holding back the release.

I didn't get involved with the Wiki until a month ago, but there is sometimes a lot useful information there.
I didn't start joining the IRC channels until a couple weeks ago, but there's been a lot of useful information there.
I didn't start reading the mailing list archive until about a week ago, but there's a lot of useful information there.
If people started using these resources, a lot of these generic questions/situations could be avoided.
Join a community effort and help the Wiki.

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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by EmuandCo » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:12 am

nute wrote:Another difference is that the people working on the other projects do not seem to be prejudiced against Linux or any other operating system for that matter. Windows seems to be treated by this community as if it is the ONLY OS that matters.
Well, we don't try to get a Linux compatible OS, do we?! Of course Windows is the only OS that matters for us. And if Ged says that Linux's Architecture sucks, then its his opinion (which I fully support btw). We already know that all opinions that differ to yours are pure blasphemy of course. Ged will be punished in hell for that at a later time.
nute wrote:I'm not convinced that Windows is a stable platform despite what this community says. Why does Windows 7 need 4-6 gigabytes of ram to run stably?
Err, WHAT??!? I run Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit on a 1 GB Notebook and 64 Bit on a 2GB PC right now. They both work GREAT. I even build ROS on the Notebook DAILY. Whoever your source is, he has no experience with Windows at all!
nute wrote:I never said that the ReactOS project is dead, but it is dying. Missing the 2 month release cycle by 2-3 months is not a positive development. If this continues to happen time and time again, this project will be moving pretty slowly if at all in the
future.
As Ged already said, we don't move slowly There are dozens of commits every week and thousands between the releases. And If you would follow Ged's invitation to leave the forums and finally come to the places where real development takes place, you would know that! Of course you did not read this, because is does not fit in your argumentation. I understand that, arguments against your standpoint will just be ignored just as all answers we gave you. Otherwise it would be too difficult to troll more and more if you start to loose your ideas due to our arguments...
nute wrote:Instead of banning someone from the forums for "asking too many questions," maybe it would be
wiser to reevaluate the policy of keeping everything that is in the forums indefinitely.
If people ask many questions, I really like that. But if this person has a demanding writing and insults any ppl who don't give him as answer what he wants them to, then I start to get really distracted!
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

nute
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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by nute » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:28 pm

EdmuandCo, I never said that anyone is going to go to Hell. You certainly did though.

As far as the blasphemy comment, it is inappropriate to knock Linux in order to promote ReactOS.
The Syllable community doesn't knock Linux and then turn around and say that Syllable is better
the way the ReactOS community apparently does. Maybe those in the ReactOS community who
have a bad attitude about Linux could learn something from the Syllable people.

Linux's architecture is not crap. I use Linux every day and have found it to be more reliable than
Windows. I would never recommend to anyone who needs to run a server that they run Windows
for that purpose, though I might recommend that they leave X Windows off. Packet filtering in
Linux is far superior to anything that Windows offers, period. Linux with the way user accounts
are implemented is far better at separating users than Windows is. For one thing, you are not
logging out of a normal user in X Windows all the time just to do an administrative task the
way you have to in Windows land. Linux has a way to allow you to assume the priviledges you
need temporarily and drop them after you are done.

Linux has been designed with networking in mind from day one unlike Windows which was originally
a quasi OS running on top of a dos system.

If Windows is so great and NT is the ultimate, why are there driver issues in Vista and WIndows 7?
Why are so many people sticking with Windows XP because either A they don't want to deal with
digital restrictions management or b they are afraid that their programs won't work? The driver
model for Vista and 7 is different than the driver model for XP and it is causing problems with
some hardware.

I know that the memory requirements for 7 are 1 gigabyte minimum, which seems ridiculous just to run the
operating system.

Linux is not just a kernel by the way. For Linus perhaps it is just a kernel, but Linux usually means the
kernel plus everything else that is in a typical distribution.

Whether WINE+Linux will be the best way to run Windows applications without Microsoft or ReactOS will
be the best way in the long run is hard to say. Maybe there won't be a best way as these two pathways
to running Windows software without Microsoft mature.

I'm very concerned about the current Windows driver model insofar as Microsoft has sold it's soul to the
recording industry and is borderline stepping on people's fair use rights. ReactOS can correct that mistake
perhaps, but it may mean that new drivers have to be written for much of the hardware that is out now
without the digital restrictions management stuff.

I have 3 very simple requests:

1) Stop badmouthing Linux.

2) Stop saying that Windows in it's current remake is perfect. If it is, there's hardly any reason for ReactOS.

3) Don't threaten people who use the forum with banning.

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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by EmuandCo » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:04 pm

nute wrote:Linux's architecture is not crap. I use Linux every day and have found it to be more reliable than Windows.
As I said. Its our opinion and you have to respect that! I use Windows every day and have found it to be more reliable than Linux.
nute wrote:Packet filtering in Linux is far superior to anything that Windows offers, period.
And all the dependency problems with different Packages are that worst thing I ever had to solve in my whole time using PCs!
nute wrote:Linux with the way user accounts are implemented is far better at separating users than Windows is. For one thing, you are not logging out of a normal user in X Windows all the time just to do an administrative task the way you have to in Windows land. Linux has a way to allow you to assume the priviledges you need temporarily and drop them after you are done.
Err, what??!? I never had to logoff to do anything! I suggest you read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Account_Control
nute wrote:Linux has been designed with networking in mind from day one unlike Windows which was originally a quasi OS running on top of a dos system.
We talk about Windows NT, not 9x. NT NEVER EVER was based on DOS! Read some facts before you try to argument with us!
nute wrote:If Windows is so great and NT is the ultimate, why are there driver issues in Vista and WIndows 7?
Well, we have some drivers at least, Linux not...
nute wrote:The driver model for Vista and 7 is different than the driver model for XP and it is causing problems with some hardware.
See my argument above.
nute wrote:I know that the memory requirements for 7 are 1 gigabyte minimum, which seems ridiculous just to run the operating system.
Do you ever read our posts??! I said I BUILD ROS ON IT, HELLOOO?!? READ MEEEE!
nute wrote:Linux is not just a kernel by the way. For Linus perhaps it is just a kernel, but Linux usually means the kernel plus everything else that is in a typical distribution.
Theres a difference between Linux and GNU/Linux. Another time: Read some facts before you try to argument with us!
nute wrote:I have 3 very simple requests:

1) Stop badmouthing Linux.

2) Stop saying that Windows in it's current remake is perfect. If it is, there's hardly any reason for ReactOS.

3) Don't threaten people who use the forum with banning.
I have three requests too:

1) Stop hyping Linux!

2) Stop saying we suck and Linux is the uuuber OS. If it would be, why are you here??

3) Start behaving before we really ban you!
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Haos » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:48 pm

This thread is getting offtopic. I`m gonna play with it, but recomment to be transferred to appropriate section.

I`d suggest leaving religion out of discussion. You cannot tread EmuandCo (not EdmuandCo) opinions as such, as those were being used in a colloquial meaning.
As a free human being, that used to work on linux in the past, i`m entitled to having my own opinion about it and share it with others. I dont understand why should i love linux just because you order us to do it?

As for linux architecture being crap - this opinion didn`t originate within me or EmuandCo, but comes from people of our team, that ACTUALLY coded linux kernel in the past. Did you do such thing yourself or are you just defending someone else's opionion? Still, this is our private opinion, not the statement of ReactOS team and you cannot treat it as such.

I am using Windows Server on a daily basis in multiple machines (over 20-30 in my workplace) but also for several years as my desktop/laptop OS. I`ve been using Linux on similar machines for almost two years so i might say i can honestly compare both. Can you say the same thing?

Windows Server IS stable. No matter how intensively i used it, even at my local pc i rarely had to reboot it for other stuff than updates. I had uptimes of half a year with no sweat and no performace degradation... surprised? And you dont have to turn GUI off to achieve it...

Same thing is with packet filtering. You just need a proper app to do the job...

As for user accounts, i dont see what is wrong with Windows user management or in what things is Linux superior?

On windows you can also perform all administrative actions on admin account, without logging off from your user account... surprised?
nute wrote: Linux has been designed with networking in mind from day one unlike Windows which was originally
a quasi OS running on top of a dos system.
Mixing up Windows 9x with NT shows your complete ignorance in terms of NT architecture. Pardon me... proves. You managed to show that ignorance way before.
nute wrote:If Windows is so great and NT is the ultimate, why are there driver issues in Vista and WIndows 7?
What driver issues? Vista has a new sound/network stack, whereas Windows 7 - a new WDDM. Its quite clear that you need a proper driver with support of new stack. Mostly its up to the device manufacturer to supply those, alas in Windows 7 there is a great chance for you to have most of the devices working ootb, or having drivers ready to download from Windows Update, if only your hardware is not medieval.
nute wrote:Why are so many people sticking with Windows XP because either A they don't want to deal with
digital restrictions management or b they are afraid that their programs won't work?
Either its a question and you require an answer from me or its a statement and you are providing it. I wont respond to this grammatical monster.
nute wrote:The driver model for Vista and 7 is different than the driver model for XP and it is causing problems with some hardware.
Why are you asking about driver issues if you respond to your question (albeit not exactly correctly) after few sentences?
I know that the memory requirements for 7 are 1 gigabyte minimum, which seems ridiculous just to run the
operating system.
Wrong. I was able to run Windows 7 on 512MB of RAM (virtual machine) and still had 200 MB of ram free (counting system cache as used). You need 1 GB for normal operation, as for example your beloved opensource Firefox can eat up to 600 MB...
Linux is not just a kernel by the way. For Linus perhaps it is just a kernel, but Linux usually means the
kernel plus everything else that is in a typical distribution.
Wrong. Linux is a kernel. GNU/Linux is Linux with GNU toolset. Distributions tend to have their own names. Please be specific and dont use colloquial terms in your discussion.
I'm very concerned about the current Windows driver model insofar as Microsoft has sold it's soul to the
recording industry and is borderline stepping on people's fair use rights. ReactOS can correct that mistake
perhaps, but it may mean that new drivers have to be written for much of the hardware that is out now
without the digital restrictions management stuff.
No religious stuff please. Microsoft is a commercial enterprise, that is supposed to maximize income. Fitting it into ideological terms is inappropriate.
To discurage you futher, there will be no drivers dedicated to ReactOS. Never.

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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by EmuandCo » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:03 pm

Moved to off topic, as correctly demanded by Haos.
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

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Re: ReactOS 0.3.11 progress...

Post by Z98 » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:40 pm

Bloody hell............

All three of you, stop fighting over this. This constant back and forth is getting pointless.

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