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poor nute

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:10 am
by unofficialforum
if you clicked on the title expecting a post that trashes nute, you wasted your time. i don't like or dislike (or know) the guy, he seems ok. i've been lurking on this forum for years now, and i still don't know what the point is. i used to be able to run ros from a livecd, now i can only run it from qemu- i think i know why and i'm sure that someday i'll be able to use real hardware again. ros certainly is a lot faster and more stable now.

yeah, the point of this forum... i guess the point of the forum is to say "we have a forum." but beyond that, i don't know what it's for. you can ask questions, but please don't. you can talk about features, but it's pointless to talk about them, as people are so fond of explaining. if people never understand it's pointless to ask, isn't it also pointless to try to get them to understand? both sides are wasting their time.

some members of this forum like to trash the linux community for those who are extreme. funny thing is, i've never seen any community more anal-retentive about pointless questions, as if too many pointless questions will start a war or damage the ozone layer. you almost have to be a member of the community to know what's pointless to ask. yeah, you're probably tired of hearing the same old questions. yeah, a lot of them would go away if people read the faq.

but people don't read faq's, faq's are impersonal and whether it's stupid and misguided or not, they prefer to ask questions. it's too bad no one can find someone who doesn't actually like answering pointless questions, there sure is a hoarde of people that enjoy saying how much they hate answering them... just like people should learn how to use their computer. they should, but they don't. and you can cater to them, right? but god forbid people come to the reactos forum and ask (again, and again) how the project is going? i mean that's not what the forum is for!

ros was going to update on a real schedule to stop these kinds of questions. it was a good plan, but don't complain about how it's been abandoned. just give up. if you want to know the latest, the best thing to do is just read the completely outdated and irrelevant roadmap that no one will ever maintain, read the condescending faq's, or become a dev- that's the reasonable thing to do. but don't ask! please, the devs have better things to do. if only it were true- the forums would be a lot nicer if they did.

if you guys are going to be this arrogant, why not wait until -after- you have an os that people actually use? or, you know i read the story about the convention... where was it, in europe somewhere? i don't remember, it's not important. all i could think was "man, it's a good thing they don't have the same attitude at the conventions they do at the forums. they'd have to brusquely turn away every poor bastard that came to their table with: "god, i'm so tired of these questions. just read the handout! there's plenty for everyone..." and nute: stop asking!

the thing that makes me sad about the linux community is not "there are no stupid questions." it's more like "there are no intelligent questions." obviously this crap attitude is one that the ros and linux world have in common, so the two communities should be able to get along better, they have a hatred of "stupid" questions in common.

i come to the forum for two reasons- one, because people sometimes talk about interesting stuff related to windows and (although i know some of you hate it so much...) open source. (?...) the other reason is to see how reactos is coming along. thanks to people like nute asking "stupid" questions, no matter how many half-assed faq's and (really quite decent, also really quite infrequent) newsletters come out, people "bothering" other people with questions seems to be where MOST of the information comes from!

so thanks, nute. for nothing, i suppose? for being yourself, no matter how much people try to convince you to be someone else. if not for your "stupid" questions, stupid answers is all we'd have. some people are tired of your questions, but i'm a lot more tired of the answers you get from people that must think abuse is more useful than an innocent, (even naive) request for information. i think it's a lot of CRAP.

you should skip the forum and go to their conventions. they're probably a lot nicer to people there, because they don't want the world to think they're a bunch of assholes. they want to make a good impression, i guess! it's a pity that such an interesting project has to come from such boring people, but at the end of the day, you should have NICE people deal with your "customers." you should have the SMART people working in the basement, far away from crowds, forums, and the general public. that would help ros a lot.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:17 am
by coldReactive
That's how Ubuntu Forums is run (at times), maybe we're more like linux communities than we thought?

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:33 am
by hto
unofficialforum wrote: but at the end of the day, you should have NICE people deal with your "customers."
I totally agree with IT.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:12 am
by Lone_Rifle
You've not been around on the forums for long enough, so you've not seen the number of times nute has repeated his questions. Even professional customer service or sales agents get tired if their customers ignore what they say and ask about the same things over and over again.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:49 pm
by Z98
Considering nute has launched personal attacks on several members of the forum, myself included, our patience with him is pretty much at an end. If the last spat is any indication, the majority of the oldtimers on this forum plan on ignoring him in the future, so he can continue asking questions and he'll get even more uninformed answers. Combined with his tendency to insist on the correctness of his own interpretations of answers, even when they have been refuted by the developers themselves, and he is not contributing anything to this forum.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:55 pm
by Black_Fox
1) Forum should get some moderators, who know something about the project (but somehow not becoming testers or devs) and are eager to answer the questions. These people should be appropriately marked, so people would know who belongs to this group.
2) These tons of half-assed FAQs and the oh-so-redundant wiki is the reason why some long-time really interested people don't have to post on the forums - they can find a lot of information there and don't have to ask.

As for nute, if he spent his time reading commit logs instead of writing novels on forum, he would have more info about project and less enemies.

EDIT: for example now you could see that in recent rev the problem with sound devices has been solved :)

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:04 am
by unofficialforum
i may have spoken too soon when choosing nute as an example. ignoring someone when they're bothering them certainly seems more professional than trying to make an example of them.

fox: i don't mind that the faq's are "not good enough." they're volunteered, right? they should be good enough under the circumstances. only that if they're wildly outdated, (commit logs, really?) and the devs tell people to ignore the roadmap because it doesn't even mean anything, it's time to take some of them down.

a lack of up to date information coupled with an interesting goal will create lots of questions. and keeping information that is no longer remotely valid will only lead to confusion and even more questions. so like i said, perhaps nute wasn't the best example. i don't know who shot first, but you probably aren't going to get him to stop by being rude, even if he is.

a polite person will just go away when they don't get the answers they want. they might read the commit logs, for the people that do that. as i said, most people don't even read faqs- but if they do and they're misleading... well, expect potential supporters to be put out-

remove every potential supporter that isn't totally reasonable all the time, and who's left? a very, very small number of people helping you code and maintain the faq's i guess. but maybe not nute. and, i genuinely hope ros is something we can all make use of eventually. if it meets its goals, it will probably be worth the wait.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm
by vicmarcal
Well..ReactOS has different ways to communicate its advances.
Here i will post some, maybe im forgetting some (sorry about that):

-FIRST: (It´s not a Joke) Our Forum Search Button. Anyone can find it at the Left under the Forum FAQ link(which nobody reads). It will answer about the 3/4 of the doubts of the Forum guys. Try to search: "Network Virtualbox" or "Internet VirtualBox". You will find the next Topics:
Vbox: Network problem
Network Connection in VB
ReactOS 0.3.9 on Virtualbox 2.2.2
0.3.9 Released(here there people asking about the Network issue in VBOX 2.X too)
Internet Won't Work in Sun VirtualBox
Virtualbox networking?
Don't upgrade virtualbox to 2.2.0 Windows hosts
ReactOS 0.3.9 under VirtualBox 2.2.2: Can't access Internet
8 topics about THE SAME in the last 2 months.!!!
Gabrielilardi made indeed a post to advise about the issue: "Don't upgrade virtualbox to 2.2.0 Windows hosts".

-SECOND: Our Wiki. Our Wiki is full of updated info. Why the wiki is more updated than the Website?Because it´s easier to update and anyone related to the project can change it. You will find: NICs working in ROS, Video Cards working in ROS, info for Testing,info for Developing, info for Translating, indeed our RoadMap. Also it has a Search Button.

-THIRD: Our ~2 weeks Newsletters. Z98 makes a great Job with the newsletters, they have all the ReactOS important info for the last 2 weeks. They arent too technical, he tries to make it understandable for anyone, so you can have the Hottest news quite fast. You can find them in the Main Page

-FOURTH: Blogs.There are some guys which have their own ReactOS Blogs. I know one in German, one in Spanish,one in Portuguese and one in English.Maybe there are more, they are unofficial, but most of them are written by guys(and devs) which are daily hanged in IRC, so they are somekind trustables.

-FIFTH: Webpage. Our WebPage is full of Info.I put our Webpage in the FIFTH because im supposing all the guys in forum has red at least once our ReactOS page.

If the Doubt isnt solved in this 5 places, which i doubt, then feel free to ask in good manners,with optimism, and in a positive way, so your Karma will arrive to our Devs,Testers,Translators and they will give you back all your Karma in the shape of nice,understandable answers.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:00 pm
by GoBusto
You forgot:

6) - Your source for up-to-the-microsecond commit information.

7) The mailing lists - Especially the developer list.

8) Bugzilla - There are often new topics posted on the forum along the lines of "X doesn't work in ReactOS, why doesn't it work, it works fine in Windows" that are instantly replied to with "This is a known bug, see bugzilla entry #wxyz".

For the technically inclined, there is also:

9) Doxygen - Up-to-date source code documentation...

10) SVN - ...for up-to-date source code.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:16 pm
by Black_Fox
...and if visitors are lazy to at least try to search for info on some of these places, then what's wrong with us being lazy to give proper answer for the xth time?

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:35 pm
by Haos
@Black_fox: try it yourself, for some time then. That way you`ll soon see, what is wrong. And btw, last time i checked, there are no customers...

As for nute, i do have issues with people that attempt to order me around, telling what should (must even) do and what not. The same rules apply for both sides.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:36 pm
by Black_Fox
Haos, how many times did I post here asking about something? I didn't ask, how to install into QEMU/VmWare/Vbox, how to use sound under Vbox, how to edit Czech keyboard layout, always tried to find solution to all problems by myself first before asking elsewhere, some sites useful for me appeared on IRC etc... a lot of this stuff is in wiki, although i DID have few questions about translating in my beginnings, but majority of my posts are answers or my opinions/arguments. :P

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:14 pm
by vicmarcal
I think you Black_Fox you misunderstood Haos Or maybe i am misunderstanding both of you.Please correct me.
Haos wrote:@Black_fox: try it yourself, for some time then. That way you`ll soon see, what is wrong. And btw, last time i checked, there are no customers...
Black_Fox wrote:Haos, how many times did I post here asking about something? I
I think he used "Try yourself" as "Try to be lazy giving answers" not as "Try to apply that rule to you". Or at least i understood in that way.

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:24 pm
by hto
vicmarcal wrote: I think you Black_Fox you misunderstood Haos Or maybe i am misunderstanding both of you. Please correct me.
Black_Fox wrote: 1) Forum should get some moderators, who know something about the project (but somehow not becoming testers or devs) and are eager to answer the questions. These people should be appropriately marked, so people would know who belongs to this group.
Haos wrote: @Black_fox: try it yourself, for some time then. That way you`ll soon see, what is wrong.

Re: poor nute

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:36 pm
by Haos
Rephrasing: Try yourself to answer forum questions, being detailed, specific, nice and gentle. Especially for those like the following:
When can a new explorer that is more stable be expected?
I see that 0.3.11 is planned. From 0.3.10 to 0.3.11, what
will the development focus be most likely?
(asked when final 0.3.10 blocker list wasnt even set up).
Something that has been ignored for a long time concerning
the installer is partitioning and file system checking.
Shouldn't the former be easy to do? Isn't it possible
to port the partitioning tools that are commonly used
under Linux to ReactOS?
I want to be able to install ReactOS next to Windows XP
on the same hard disk and it would be nice if XP doesn't
see ReactOS.
How come 0.3.11 is on the roadmap? It's odd that it's on the roadmap without any
comments regarding what the goals for this release will be.
This is an old thread. Having been cold for 4 years, what is changing in regards to having an updater?
What can be expected as far as networking is concerned?
What can be expected on the file system front?
Also this is my fav:
How is implementing a Windows compatible device manager and add new hardware
wizard even possible? Perhaps a better approach is to NOT support MS-Windows
drivers directly convincing hardware manufacturers to release the necessary
info to implement new drivers instead.
Now Black_Fox, why dont you try and help us out with answering to such pointless questions?