My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

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cppm
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by cppm »

Nute do you not understand that this project is of such a nature that makes your questions impossible to answer with any certainty.

Consider - your question about when 'specific' programs will work. In order to answer that one could know exactly what it is that's stopping the program from working, and how to fix it - if that was the case then perhaps they would have already fixed them? These aren't monkeys they're working with intellectual problems, combing through code in order to find a problem that could be found in the first or the 100th place they look and then fixing the problem which might be a one liner slip up or could be a major implementation error and require rewrites of entire swathes of code.

Because of this you can't reliably predict when they will have particular applications working.

Alternatively you could demand that they commit to getting something to work at a particular time. Unfortunately there are no paid coders on this project, they have pressing concerns in their life outside of ReactOS and they simply cannot commit to a particular timeframe. As much as you are clearly excited by the project and want to know more about it you need to show a bit more patience because asking these questions makes it sound like you are demanding this kind of time commitment from the devs.

Do you see? It's not because they're incompetant, they're working on it in their spare time and don't like it when they feel they have to commit to a timescale. If you know a concerned millionaire who is willing to hire the teams of programmers like that which MS has then you can start to expect reliable deadlines.

Luxx
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Luxx »

I think you expect way to mutch from ReactOS at this moment. ReactOS is just a ALFA OS, that is still far from being what it's some day gonne be. Unfortunately i'm a 'total noob' for OS-developing, so i just enjoy the alfa's, and give-up when something is not working.

Until there is at least a 'official beta' i assume developers have more useful stuff to do than fixing some specific bug for me. When there is a beta, some stuff might start to work and i might try it more often. Read the frontpage:
Please bear in mind that ReactOS 0.3.9 is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is not recommended for everyday use.
If you want a OS that's complete/working out of the box, use something else. For now ReactOS is only 'usefull' to test/play/foolaround with. I like reading the newsletters, and see there progress is being made. Sometimes i give the softare a go, and have some fun with it. It's stil a long way to go, but even small steps help getting ReactOS more stable.

When ReactOS will be stable/final some day, it's still a OSS OS, that's being developed by a group of volunteers. If you want a high lvl of support, you should purchase support (or a entire os), and pay for it.

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Pesho
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Pesho »

Cppm said it best, you're too excited an impatient. I haven't even bothered to try out any of the latest releases simply because there usually isn't anything spectacular, most of the work is under the hood. I do enjoy reading the newsletters though, because that's where you can really find out what was updated. Come back in 2 years and maybe then we'll get to see a beta.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by nute »

A couple of comments:

1) You don't have to purchase support for Linux or Linux itself, though you can.
Linux is a solid operating system whether you purchase a copy at high price
or download a free spin off.

2) Predicting that it will take 2 years to get to Beta is coming from where exactly?
2 months per release and there are to be at least 9 releases say before
0.5.x only comes out to about 18 months. What guarantee is there that
ReactOS won't reach beta in 6 months?

3) Is being alpha software really a good enough excuse for not predicting at all when
a beta release will be available? Just because people are volunteering, does that
mean that this project goes on with an open ended timeline and no guarantees?
When is it time to quit, time to give up? Would that be 5, 10, 15, 20, or 20+ years
from now? By the time ReactOS stabilizes, will anyone have commercial software
from this decade to run on it?

4) I hope this project doesn't become a waste of effort for the developers. It would be
a travesty for this project to go nowhere having been rescued from it's rocky
beginnings as the freewin95 project.

5) For reasons I cannot fathom trying to drum up interest in a WIndows 9x clone for
Freedos, I got told it is off topic. There is dos based Windows software that is
orphaned now, will ReactOS be able to support these programs? Red Alert
WIndows 95 edition comes to mind.

6) There was a successful fund raising campaign a while back, why not raise funds
to pay a volunteer so that he/she can make ReactOS his/her day job?

Who commits to any project without at least some vague idea of when it will be completed
and then maybe it takes 3x as long to get it done?

cuttysark
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:20 pm

Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by cuttysark »

I understand why Nute is impatient... I am to.
But Alpha stage is Alpha stage. This is rocket science.
Although I belive that DEV's could have more interest in the common user point of view. Connectivity is the answer (USB, Firewire,Network, BT,IR,whatever!). If we get connectivity Dev's will get an army of testers that could feed them for 10 years, providing them millions of harware combinations and situations. Well... Thinking twice on what i have just mentioned, it's better if we let DEV's keep their priorities..

nute
Posts: 251
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by nute »

There is this myth that I'm trying to be a jerk and boss the developers around.
I have just one comment to make:

A project being OSS does NOT signify that it isn't a professional project.
Linux is mostly developed by volunteers, yet many companies use Linux instead of
Windows for real work in the real world. I hope all the developers are striving to put
their best work into ReactOS. I also hope that there is a parallel recruiting effort
going on to increase the number of developers.

Sof_T
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Sof_T »

I hope all the developers are striving to put
their best work into ReactOS. I also hope that there is a parallel recruiting effort
going on to increase the number of developers.
Again if I was a developer for this project that sort of comment would annoy me. It implies that some developers maybe be slacking, since it is a hobby for most of them something they enjoy doing in their free time it is entirely up to them how much or little they do and how long it takes them. If we get anything useful out of this we should be grateful for the hours and hours of hard work that has gone into it and for the fact they are sharing it for free with us.

If you feel there should be a recruiting effort why not go out and recruit you have access to the Internet and that way maybe you could help the project while freeing up the developers time to get on with doing what they want to do.

Smiley
Developer
Posts: 156
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Smiley »

Hi Nute
nute wrote:A couple of comments:

1) You don't have to purchase support for Linux or Linux itself, though you can.
Linux is a solid operating system whether you purchase a copy at high price
or download a free spin off.
1) You can't compare Linux and Reactos. Linux has been supported by many orgnizations like google. Although it is developed by volunteers, it is funded by many organizations.

nute wrote: 2) Predicting that it will take 2 years to get to Beta is coming from where exactly?
2 months per release and there are to be at least 9 releases say before
0.5.x only comes out to about 18 months. What guarantee is there that
ReactOS won't reach beta in 6 months?
2) As you have already seen in every Reactos releases, there is no guarantee.
nute wrote: 3) Is being alpha software really a good enough excuse for not predicting at all when
a beta release will be available? Just because people are volunteering, does that
mean that this project goes on with an open ended timeline and no guarantees?
3) Being alpha isn't an excuse, It is the reality. We cab't release a shit os and say "Hey it runs windows applications!" and it crashes all the time. None has been interested to fix these crashes or doesn't have the time to do it. Yes! The fact that people are volunteering means that we can't have any guarantee when Reactos will be released. We can't command the developers on how much they are going to work.
nute wrote: When is it time to quit, time to give up? Would that be 5, 10, 15, 20, or 20+ years
from now? By the time ReactOS stabilizes, will anyone have commercial software
from this decade to run on it?
3b) No one knows. IMO Reactos has a moving target. Well it's target is windows XP and windows XP is still used. That means that we still have plenty of time till we give up. Reactos will fail only if Windows moves on very quickly and we can't catch all these new Releases. Right now Windows isn't too far away, so we don't have a problem yet :wink:
nute wrote: 4) I hope this project doesn't become a waste of effort for the developers. It would be
a travesty for this project to go nowhere having been rescued from it's rocky
beginnings as the freewin95 project.
4) It isn't a waste of time. Even now Reactos source code is an amazing source of imormation and knowledge.
nute wrote: 5) For reasons I cannot fathom trying to drum up interest in a WIndows 9x clone for
Freedos, I got told it is off topic. There is dos based Windows software that is
orphaned now, will ReactOS be able to support these programs? Red Alert
WIndows 95 edition comes to mind.
5) IMO, Windows 9x aren't used anymore. Except that, its dinosaur technology compared to all modern operating systems and its not worth trying to clone these operating systems. DOS is DEAD. Perhaps someone will create a compatibility layer for all these applications in reactos but for now knoone has attempted to do it yet.
nute wrote: 6) There was a successful fund raising campaign a while back, why not raise funds
to pay a volunteer so that he/she can make ReactOS his/her day job?
6) It has been suggested in the past to do so but the desiscion was that funds wasn't an reliable source of income to pay developers.
nute wrote: Who commits to any project without at least some vague idea of when it will be completed
and then maybe it takes 3x as long to get it done?
7)People who have hope :wink:
Last edited by Smiley on Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

GoBusto
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by GoBusto »

Smiley wrote:We cab't release a shit os and say "Hey it runs windows applications!" and it crashes all the time.
Call it ReactME.

The123king
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by The123king »

nute wrote:There is this myth that I'm trying to be a jerk and boss the developers around.
That's because of your attitude on the forums. If you were a little more polite and a little less volatile and jump to conclusions too fast, that myth would likely dissapear. Just be a little more friendly instead of demanding and you and the developers will get on just fine :)

Also, your demanding questions tend to irritate the devs, who have to spend all their time answering your (some may say pointless) questions, instead of developing ReactOS. Try reading the newsletters, look at the ReactOS CIA and even reading the WINE release notes. You may find your questions are answered there :)

Haos
Test Team
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Haos »

Pity, i`m gonna break a thing i promised and comment once again:

@nute

You are in no position to order us anything. Even more, we do not have to answer any of your question, especially those we dont like. Also, being totally a volounteer, noncommercial project, you cant place any expectations. If we assume the best solution to stop releasing for half a year, we`ll do so. If we decide on scraping any milestone presentation, you are in no position to object.

Face it. You are a nobody here. Zero... Nada. Your contribution to this project is zero, thus your potential influence on this project is also zero. Below zero even, as your posts are wasting our good mood and energy. Instead of reading this crap you`re posting, many of us have better things to do.... like actually contributing.

You dont like the way this project is organized/led/supported/presented? Fork it, create your own and do everything as you think it should be. You can include all your dreams in it, like:
It appears that there are dead gui windows for configuring the network. The device manager doesn't even appear to be implemented. How is implementing a Windows compatible device manager and add new hardware wizard even possible? Perhaps a better approach is to NOT support MS-Windows driver...
and plenty of your brilliant thoughts, dutifully archived on this board:

http://www.reactos.org/forum/search.php ... &start=135

You are perceived as an annoying troll, that most would love to see banned. With me, being one of the first cheering when it finally happens.

Please, just once try to make this world a better place, get offended and leave this place forever.

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EmuandCo
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by EmuandCo »

nute wrote:I hope all the developers are striving to put
their best work into ReactOS. I also hope that there is a parallel recruiting effort
going on to increase the number of developers.
As already said, THIS IS A F***ING Hobby Project! And soft_t is right, i feel offended!

I fully 2nd Haos's Post and CLOSE this!

If you have any problems with this, pm me and leave the forum untouched/unspammed/untrolled!

P.S. 3/3 Warnings. Next time you will be dumped!

thx
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

Z98
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Re: My questions can't be answered by looking elsewhere...

Post by Z98 »

Just a final warning to all involved for that matter, the civility rule applies to everyone, including this arguing against nute.

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