Element Software partnership?

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zydon
Posts: 160
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by zydon »

I think Element Software can't claimed their commercial GUI framework on top of ReactOS as another OS or ElementOS. If I'm not mistaken, non-MS OS cannot use FAT32 filesystem or they had to pay to MS for commercial purpose.

I guess ElementOS should be rename as ElementGUI and sold as 3rd party commercial GUI upgrade for ReactOS. Even though they able to develop their own OS core, the file system restriction still make any other OS developer had to pay MS just for sake of the compatibility.

Unless, there are a new optional LFN file-system which is totally different structure than FAT32 can be developed. I guess, that is why other new OS using *Nix based FS to avoid these obstacle.

vicmarcal
Test Team
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by vicmarcal »

zydon wrote:I think Element Software can't claimed their commercial GUI framework on top of ReactOS as another OS or ElementOS.
The law here i think it´s a little bit blurred, but Im sure i can take ReactOS code, change the strings to VicmarcalOS and sell it without issues.And i didnt change anything but just 5 strings.Of course always respecting the GPL law. BTW i have seen Free GPL antivirus sold in Ebay, just burnt in a "cool" cd, sent to the user and fee 15$ and this is also legal.You can see ReactOS cd sold in Ebay too.
GUI is a part of the OS, so just changing a string(as VicmarcalOS) or better changing the all GUI can be considered as a new OS.
zydon wrote:If I'm not mistaken, non-MS OS cannot use FAT32 filesystem or they had to pay to MS for commercial purpose.
Until the Navigator issue(which was using Fat32 fs) there were years of use of FAT32.Maybe not legal but accepted by MS, this Navigator brand is known since years.Btw there are other OS and other Products using Fat32 and noone has complained.

patternjake
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by patternjake »

Many OSes use the FAT32 specification, including Ubuntu , Mac OS X, FreeBSD, ReactOS, SkyOS, the list can go on.

As long as you are not using the origanal fat32 drivers from MS, you dont pay any royalities because FAT is not TRULY owned by Microsoft anyhow, it still is partially owned by IBM. (Or so many sources tell us)

If Microsoft DID inforce FAT32 royalities, all Linux distros would shell out mega bucks, or would find a workaround for it. Us ourselves would just implement another filesystem somehow such as ext2, it would be possible to do that with the kernel. (It would take alot of work though, but it is possible- look at the current state of ReactOS.)

coldReactive
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by coldReactive »

They may "use" it, but the default FS that Ubuntu uses to install itself is ext3.

zydon
Posts: 160
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by zydon »

The usual MS money making pattern game is to close one eye on free distro and let money making victim to gather big bucks. The free distro is just to promote the increases of FAT32 uses to the most OS users. Then MS just shoot to the money pot when the time is right where the profit from the lawsuit winning is unimaginable an easy money.

A file system is equally important and profitable as the OS itself. The OS maker need to introduce and do the promotion to make it popular so their user don't use other FS. I think thats is why MS make FS documentation very hard and difficult to understand so less people know how to make their own FS. These kind commercials action actually slowing down the IT technology improvement at least by half of it's pace.

patternjake
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by patternjake »

coldReactive: Not true. When accessing any kind of FAT or NTFS drive ubuntu automatically loads the drivers for those drives that are PRE-INSTALLED on the system. There are many open source implementations of FAT file systems. Microsoft cannot claim patents on that because they used it from another company before them. FAT was origanally developed by IBM for the use of IBM DOS.

Sorry, but if an OS wants to use FAT or NTFS, they can do so as much as they like. Microsoft has ABSOULTELY no say unless you use the fat32.sys drivers or ntfs layers that comes with properitory windows.

Dont let things like this hold you back from developing a good OS. I like how Microsoft got the ROS developers to freeze thier code until a reverse engineer process could be done on ReactOS to see if they used Windows code. IF i had access to Windows code, I wouldnt even touch it with a barge pole knowing how bloated, unfree and unstable Windows is. (That was the whole point of the ReactOS system, as I recall).

Last time I checked, Mac OS X uses an open source BSD core and a properitory GUI. They release the open source base back to developers (Known as Darwin) but they keep Aqua closed source. This is the same as what we are doing here.

jorl17
Posts: 83
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Location: Coimbra, Portugal

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by jorl17 »

patternjake wrote: I like how Microsoft got the ROS developers to freeze thier code until a reverse engineer process could be done on ReactOS to see if they used Windows code. IF i had access to Windows code, I wouldnt even touch it with a barge pole knowing how bloated, unfree and unstable Windows is. (That was the whole point of the ReactOS system, as I recall)..
Was it really Microsoft? AFAIK it was an introspective thought

Ged
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by Ged »

jorl17 wrote:Was it really Microsoft?
heh, no. Most of what patternjake says is incorrect.
MS _does_ have FAT patents.
Our next FAT driver will take this into account and will be developed to honour these patents.

jorl17
Posts: 83
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Location: Coimbra, Portugal

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by jorl17 »

Ged wrote:
jorl17 wrote:Was it really Microsoft?
heh, no. Most of what patternjake says is incorrect.
MS _does_ have FAT patents.
Our next FAT driver will take this into account and will be developed to honour these patents.
Thanks for the info, +1 on your intentions!

Pharaoh_Atem
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:33 am

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by Pharaoh_Atem »

patternjake wrote:FAT was origanally developed by IBM for the use of IBM DOS.
*Sounds buzzer*

WRONG!

IBM never developed IBM DOS. Microsoft did. Until about MSDOS 5, IBM DOS was a fork designed specifically for IBM systems. IBM DOS 5 and up were simple rebranding of MSDOS.

Also, Bill Gates and Marc MacDonald (who was Microsoft's first employee on salary) developed FAT together in 1977. So yes, Microsoft completely owned FAT. However, FAT was not patented until very late on (somewhere around 1990-1994), and that was only VFAT LFN part of it. All other parts of FAT are international specifications and are free to use for any purpose.

I'm very interested in your ElementOS. It seems like something that would be very useful for the numerous older machines I have laying around here.

patternjake
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by patternjake »

I stand corrected then. Although I always knew that IBM had some involvement with DOS somehow. Anyway, apart from the whole FAT issue (what a load of FUD if i do say so myself) Id like to give you all a development update.

After experiementing further with a ReactOS trunk build (0.4) we have come up with some rather intresting results. We managed to hack and implement in the ElementOS gui a very competent compositioning manager. Although it will be off by default, it does yield some good results. We have managed a very cool flame and fade effect, and even a Vista swing like effect in the ElementOS Gui and applications. We ALSO managed to get some shell dialogs to that with eh.. some artifacts. It runs OK in VirtualBox but runs very well on a old Toshiba laptop.

A build will be uploaded soon as further testing can be achieved. We are experiencing a major issue though with some network wrapping in the file digger, at one time just loading Element Browser in the gui cased a BSOD, we think this is down to a network stack bieng changed in the 0.4 release, because it didnt do that before in 0.3. We may wait until a later more stable build comes along, or just stick to the 0.3 base (trouble is, we lose some of our cool compositioning effects.)

At loss here. But dont worry we are working on it!

Pharaoh_Atem
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:33 am

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by Pharaoh_Atem »

zydon wrote:Unless, there are a new optional LFN file-system which is totally different structure than FAT32 can be developed. I guess, that is why other new OS using *Nix based FS to avoid these obstacle.
Actually there are two ways to get around it. One is the new way implemented in the patch by the Linux kernel. Another way would actually be a fairly old way to do it. Way back in the earlier Linux kernels there was a filesystem called umsdos, and it supported extra UNIX permissions by storing them in the "--linux-.---" file. There was a uvfat driver too, but I'm not totally sure on its implementation. I think it additionally stored the LFN inside the file as well, leaving the 8.3 filename untouched.
patternjake wrote:I stand corrected then. Although I always knew that IBM had some involvement with DOS somehow. Anyway, apart from the whole FAT issue (what a load of FUD if i do say so myself) Id like to give you all a development update.

After experiementing further with a ReactOS trunk build (0.4) we have come up with some rather intresting results. We managed to hack and implement in the ElementOS gui a very competent compositioning manager. Although it will be off by default, it does yield some good results. We have managed a very cool flame and fade effect, and even a Vista swing like effect in the ElementOS Gui and applications. We ALSO managed to get some shell dialogs to that with eh.. some artifacts. It runs OK in VirtualBox but runs very well on a old Toshiba laptop.

A build will be uploaded soon as further testing can be achieved. We are experiencing a major issue though with some network wrapping in the file digger, at one time just loading Element Browser in the gui cased a BSOD, we think this is down to a network stack bieng changed in the 0.4 release, because it didnt do that before in 0.3. We may wait until a later more stable build comes along, or just stick to the 0.3 base (trouble is, we lose some of our cool compositioning effects.)

At loss here. But dont worry we are working on it!
Great! Can't wait to try out some builds!

vicmarcal
Test Team
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by vicmarcal »

patternjake wrote: A build will be uploaded soon as further testing can be achieved. We are experiencing a major issue though with some network wrapping in the file digger, at one time just loading Element Browser in the gui cased a BSOD, we think this is down to a network stack bieng changed in the 0.4 release, because it didnt do that before in 0.3. We may wait until a later more stable build comes along, or just stick to the 0.3 base (trouble is, we lose some of our cool compositioning effects.)

At loss here. But dont worry we are working on it!
Hi patternjake, We didnt release a 0.4 build, the last one(stable and official release) is 0.3.10. :). If you are testing builds, then be careful not all of them are stable or working properlly. :)
Check if the "network wrapping code" which is giving the issues works in XP too :), if the issue is just related with ReactOS, create a small-focusing-in-the-issue testcase and we will create a bugreport about it, to have it fixed as soon as possible.Just remind that the testcase should work perfectly in XP to be considered valid :)
Thanks

coldReactive
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:42 pm

Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by coldReactive »

vicmarcal wrote:
patternjake wrote: A build will be uploaded soon as further testing can be achieved. We are experiencing a major issue though with some network wrapping in the file digger, at one time just loading Element Browser in the gui cased a BSOD, we think this is down to a network stack bieng changed in the 0.4 release, because it didnt do that before in 0.3. We may wait until a later more stable build comes along, or just stick to the 0.3 base (trouble is, we lose some of our cool compositioning effects.)

At loss here. But dont worry we are working on it!
Hi patternjake, We didnt release a 0.4 build, the last one(stable and official release) is 0.3.10. :). If you are testing builds, then be careful not all of them are stable or working properlly. :)
Check if the "network wrapping code" which is giving the issues works in XP too :), if the issue is just related with ReactOS, create a small-focusing-in-the-issue testcase and we will create a bugreport about it, to have it fixed as soon as possible.Just remind that the testcase should work perfectly in XP to be considered valid :)
Thanks
The entire trunk is the 0.4 build, according to the start-ish menu.

vicmarcal
Test Team
Posts: 2732
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Re: Element Software partnership?

Post by vicmarcal »

coldReactive wrote: The entire trunk is the 0.4 build, according to the start-ish menu.
Well the entire trunk is the "SVN 0.4" which doesnt mean the entire trunk is the 0.4 build. There are 0.3.10 builds,0.3.9 builds,0.3.8 builds, but i didnt see any 0.4 builds.Calling a "build" something which isnt "building" doesnt have much sense ;). But this is just philosophical stuff.

Btw, my main point was that saying "This Network wrapping doesnt work in the 0.4 build"(as patternjake said) doesnt point us to any valid revision/release. There are about thousands of revisions marked as "SVN 0.4"(all the daily revisions since 0.3.0 release), so if he can point us to the revision/release he is testing will be much more helpful.

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