Linux based Reactos

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JPLR
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Linux based Reactos

Post by JPLR » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:49 pm

Hi,

With the advent of Linux Unified Kernel I am wondering how much time will happen before we see a completly integrated Wine in a Linux Unified kernel (Linux + a portion of Reactos' Ntoskrnl).
At least this would bring to us USB, read+write NTFS and WIFI plus execution of Windows application software without Wine's hassle.
It may be already achieved in some university lab...

What do you think?

Z98
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by Z98 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:56 pm

Of minimal interest to us. Half the devs borderline or openly hate Linux's design and behavior while most of the rest don't believe in the concept of a universal operating system. The entire point of this project was to not depend on Linux and actually have a NT implementation after all.

dark
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by dark » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:44 am

The more you program for Linux, the more you realize it's not fit for a desktop computer. ("Shared libraries vs DLL; DLL wins by a mile, including where they are usually stored too.)

Blackcrack
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by Blackcrack » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:37 am

Z98 wrote:Of minimal interest to us. Half the devs borderline or openly hate Linux's design and behavior while most of the rest don't believe in the concept of a universal operating system. The entire point of this project was to not depend on Linux and actually have a NT implementation after all.

Hate linux, oky, but shold not forget to be, one Open Source Family, securely between the linux achitecture and Winnt architecture there differences that can not be fit outer eight. But which one should not forget that Linux was the icebreaker with the GPL, which is then finally, this project possible.
This it must be remembered. Or i am wrong ? By Self i use Linux MDV 2008.1 and MDV-Cooker, but I see more and more that Linux is increasingly slating and all somehow working against each other and that is the problem. No real unity more on Linux and that is certainly similar to the war between Iraq and Iran of some side wanted and supported. It is precisely this disunity, which makes a Linux hate to even too. So i think. Exactly why Linux it is used by many with it hated, because a lot of work put into it, but not really to end what remains. No realy standard anymore.. on linuxpackages like deb,rpm and only src-code and furter developing.. simple torned by distriebutors with what is supported too..

We need a standard for a community to form around us and also to give individuality and we can collectively continue to be able to develop. And Reactos it is the best for it in my eyes too

And there for it is an/one WinNT-Standart (Win32/64 as execute binary) the best one.
In future too.

best regards
Blacky

JPLR
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by JPLR » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:51 am

Hi Haos,

My question was not about the feeling of developpers, but about the possibility of a Linux based Reactos or something enough similar in a near future. That was I posted in this category
I know the current developers hate Linux but every one interested in Reactos has not to share the ideas of the current developers. BTW I am not either a Linux fan, I am used to Windows and the most useful tool is not the best one but the one you are used to.

But I must recognize that since 2005 and in terms of user visible functionalities Linux thrived while Reactos stalled. Currently Reactos is one of the older OS projects (born in 1998 not 2001 as written in Wikipedia, with a near complete NT kernel since 2001) and now one with only minimal features by today's standards.

Every other OS project seems to enjoy USB (DOS users enjoy it since years) and even DOS is now able to do WIFI on some specific chip brand (how amazing!), most of these OSes can read NTFS (DOS can do it since years). To show a positive and very practical mind user could envisgae to switch to a Linux based Reactos because now it's possible, thanks to "Linux Unified Kernel".

Again I am not advocating for the Reactos current devs to switch, I am just asking if anyone anticipate "a Linux distribution with Reactos capabilities" in a near future, as this is very important for users even if Reactos devs don't care.

vicmarcal
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by vicmarcal » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:45 pm

JPLR:

Lets see...

*First: Reactos based in Linux?It doesnt have any sense.If you want to use a Linux which can execute Windows apps, then you should try WINE.
*Second: About Joining Linux Unified Kernel. Linux Unified Kernel uses ReactOS code.So, if we move to Linux Unified Kernel...who is going to develop the NT architecture?
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JPLR
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by JPLR » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks VicMarcal for the insightful remarks.

* First I am not asking for Reactos to move to this new architecture, I am just asking about opinion about if we are close to see Linux distributions with embedded Reactos.

* For your first proposal, does Wine make it possible to use all Windows based applications that needs USB support? I don't think so ( http://wiki.winehq.org/USB ), in fact Wine is a wrapper around Windows applications using the host OS memory, the file systems and probably nothing else. The question of drivers is more and more tricky in Wine and Reactos as directX, USB and all sort of hardware have APIs managed outside the Windows kernel.

In fact probably the idea of Wine and Reactos is sound for a kernel only API like it was for NT 3.5.
But now (NT4 and up) to run a Windows application, it's not enough to emulate the kernel, you have also to emulate the API that is offered to applications by the drivers and also manage the interactions between the driver and the kernel (look at USB and NDISWrapper for good examples).

An improvement for the end user is offered by NDISWrapper and sister projects, because NDISWrapper runs in the same memory space than the Linux kernel and is able to manage a Windows driver by emulating a NTOSKRNL for the interactions between the driver and the NTOSKRNL. To obtain the same functionnalities under Reactos you have to write a Windows compatible driver (there is no meaning to do this for Wine) and all driver code in Reactos was written more than 5 years ago and never modified afterwards.

So my conclusion is: No if you want to run all modern Windows applications Wine itself is not enough.


* About the second question about developing an open source NT architecture, the outcome of Reactos is quite satisfactory don't you think so? Reactos successfully developped over the years a model for the Windows NT3/NT4 kernel, it would have been much better if the project was able to write a good documentation during the 13 years of existence.
If you look at Linux or BSDs there are tons of documentation written about them.
The old answer in Reactos is that you have to look at Windows documentation but it's bullshit because Reactos kernel architecture is similar to Windows 3.5, the Win32 subsystem is close to Windows NT4 and nothing that specific to Windows 2000 or XP is built in Reactos (think of ACL, NTFS, USB, WDM, KMDF, UDMF, cryptoAPI and the many, many other API frameworks that came with them)

In fact the lack of documentation shows that Reactos goal is not really to develop an NT architecture, it's somewhere else.

silverblade
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by silverblade » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:54 pm

As has already been said, ReactOS is intended to be an open-source alternative to Windows NT/2000/XP/etc...

It follows the architecture as closely as possible, in order to achieve maximum compatibility. So, we have our own kernel, and we do use some parts of WINE that do not depend on Linux.

Personally, I'd like to see a "unified kernel". It's something I've thought about before. It makes more sense for someone to incorporate the NT architecture into Linux than to attempt to incorporate the Linux architecture into Windows, primarily due to the kernel interface of Linux which typically becomes binary-incompatible between revisions.

Being able to load Windows drivers on Linux and have, say, networking/sound/video available as if they were Linux devices would be quite useful - for people who want to use Linux but don't have the drivers they need. It's also an interesting 'engineering' task, joining two platforms together.

WINE would probably still just handle user-mode applications, but it shouldn't be too hard to make it talk to kernel-mode ntoskrnl etc.

It sounds pretty impressive anyway. But they are the ones likely using our code as a significant aid in building their kernel, so whilst we focus on making an NT-compatible OS, their project has a different goal but can still use our code without needing us to be involved with their project directly.
Andrew / Silver Blade

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Z98
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by Z98 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:24 pm

I highly doubt we'll see anything like that any time soon, especially considering some of the FOSS zealots would go nuts if suddenly there was a stable ABI for drivers to use in Linux, since that undermines their tactic of trying to force hw manufacturers to open up specifications or drivers. That by itself is likely to stall any such effort from becoming mainstream. Then there's the actual technical challenge of trying to merge two completely incompatible system architectures.

As for your other claims:

Where do you think the NDISWrapper devs got their information from? The ROS project. The developers of this project were the ones that helped them get the information they needed to create the wrapper for wireless drivers. And where in the world did you get the idea that the driver code hasn't been touched in 5 years? Considering all the work that the developers have been constantly going in and out of the network stack and FS drivers to get it more stable over the past two?

The ROS kernel is NOT like 3.5. The rewrite by Alex brought the kernel up to Server 2003 standards for the most part, with only a few components still outdated. Also, the Win32 subsystem has constantly been targeting the latest Windows version. And I'm not entirely sure what ACLs and NTFS have to do with the Win32 subsystem. And I'll also point out it was only in the last two years or so that Linux got credible NTFS support.

Lack of documentation? MS already documented vast parts of the NT architecture and if we did our job right, it should also be applicable to ROS. And documentation exists in plenty on the wiki as Timo and Jim have been documenting the Win32 subsystem.

I also find the notion of Linux having "good" documentation rather dubious. From past experience, I actually had better luck going to MSDN for information on certain POSIX functions than all those Linux sites out there.

So if this project's goal isn't to reimplement the NT architecture, what exactly do you think it is? Cause I sure haven't seen any other goals floating around. And I also fail to see how not reproducing already existing documentation implies this project's goal isn't to reimplement NT.

vicmarcal
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by vicmarcal » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:48 pm

Linux distributions with embedded Reactos.
Maybe you didnt understand our goal.This project doesnt aim to integrate ReactOS with Linux,so your question about "When are we going to see Linux distributions with embedded Reactos" cant be answered here.Ask in Linux Unified Kernel project.
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JPLR
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by JPLR » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:47 pm

OK then I won't bother you anymore on this subject,

Thanks Silverblade, thanks VicMarcal (may I kindly remark I am posting in off topic?).
Thanks Z98 for saying that current Reactos is nearly compatible with Windows 2003 server. May I add that it is indeed even compatible with Windows Vista, 7 and Singularity and has always been since the beginning ;-)

hto
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Post by hto » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:32 pm

Thanks Z98 for saying that current Reactos is nearly compatible with Windows 2003 server. May I add that it is indeed even compatible with Windows Vista, 7 and Singularity and has always been since the beginning ;-)
No need for sarcasm, he says that Server 2003 is the current target for the ReactOS kernel.

Elledan
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by Elledan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:05 pm

I'd prefer to see people writing easy to port applications. *shrugs*

linooxlee
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by linooxlee » Fri May 22, 2009 1:17 pm

Linux Unified Kernel 0.2.4 released

On May 22nd, 2009, Linux Unified Kernel project development team officially issued Unified Kernel 0.2.4. This version ports the file managment functions into kernel with one interface, and fixes bugs of registry managment in the previous one. With the improvement, applications will perform better on Linux Unified Kernel than on Wine. And the .rpm and .deb installation files are provided in the new release to save the installing time and storage space.

In the future the following will be added to Linux Unified Kernel:

o Ext4 file system support

o SMP support

o File System Integration.

o Bug Fix for Pthread TLS.

o Windows Application Testbed.

o Various system call functions on the Windows syscall interface.

o The WDM device driver framework.

o The Windows DPC mechanism.

o Exported kernel functions defined by Windows DDK.

The version 0.2.4 of LUK source and .rpm and deb install packs are available from the following locations:

http://www.longene.org/en/download.php

The LUK official website: http://www.longene.org/en/

You will learn more about LUK on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Unified_Kernel

LUK is available thanks to the work of many people.

coldReactive
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Re: Linux based Reactos

Post by coldReactive » Fri May 22, 2009 4:38 pm

LUK depends on wine too, I don't see why we should use it over ReactOS (as wine is quite unstable too in my opinion). I'm not really a fan of linux much anymore myself mostly due to that and that I have to build source to play good games like PlaneShift.

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