Linux games company...

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nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Linux games company...

Post by nute »

I found out about a software company, their web site is at
http:// www.mygamescompany.com. They have moved
from writing WIndows games to focusing on: Linux,
Mac OS-X, and I guess they are still porting to Windows
when they're done. Dirk Darling works beautifully on my
CentOS 5 system.

I think even though this company considers writing video
games a part time hobby, they are proving commercial
software games and Linux are compatible.

It's incredible that development is progressing despite the trouble
with the 0.3.2 release. If Linux is perfectly suitable for commercial
software with reviewers saying that PCLinuxOS 2007 is the easiest
Linux distro ever for desktop users though, does this project still
make sense? Saying some companies can't go to Linux instead
of Windows, why not? Really, why not?

Are the minimum specs to run ReactOS going up? Linux runs on
an awful lot of computers that Vista can't.

Doesn't ReactOS's approach to increasing OSS software's game
support encourage game authors to continue being Microsoft
centric? I think a free operating system that people can run their
Windows software and drivers in is a commendable goal, but a
lot of Windows software and much of WIndows itself is poorly
written. I wonder how far Linux, which supposedly noone wants
to play games on, can be taken?

One thing ReactOS cannot in all likelihood change is how fast
Mircosoft Windows changes. Perhaps the efforts on ReactOS
would be better placed on improving Linux on the desktop.

Does anyone here think if Microsoft feels threatened that it will
decrease the rate at which it changes Windows? If anything,
I think Microsoft will desperately try to replace the current
Windows with a new incompatible version even sooner
than planned. Video games take about 2-5 years on average
to produce and have historically pushed adoption of newer
versions of proprietary OS'es. Since video games are some
of the most demanding programs on the planet, good luck
trying to replace the OS they depend on in the dark. I will say,
It's incredible what ReactOS has accomplished.

Z98
Release Engineer
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Post by Z98 »

nute, you're gonna have to realize sooner or later that projects like ROS do not exist slowly for the world at large. The people working on ROS do so because they want it. If the world at large wants it too, great, we can use all the support we can get. If they don't, so be it. We'll keep plowing ahead. We do not care about the naysayers, since they're people who've already made up their mind and won't use ROS anyways. Why waste the effort to try and convince them otherwise? It comes down the choice of whether you want to use ROS or not. We're not going to make that decision for you. We'll welcome you if you do join us, but we won't shed tears if you don't.

As far as MS coming out with "incompatible" versions, you seem to be forgetting the precedents MS keeps setting. They continue to try and make their OS' backwards compatible applications wise. Linux distros sure as hell don't. And don't bother bringing up drivers, they're another category entirely that by all technically should change with a major OS release, or at least with a major kernel update.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

Linux not compatible...

Post by nute »

CentOS 5 isn't even listed as a supported Linux platform for Dirk Darling, but it works.

As far as backwards compatibility. Baloney. There are plenty of Windows 9x games
and programs that don't work in NT/2000/XP/Vista. If the newest version of Windows
were always an improvement over previous ones, there'd be a lot less interest in
ReactOS. With Linux Standards Base growing, the issue of compatability is lessening.

Science Workshop and my TI-92 graphlink software work in WIndows 9x, but they
do not work in NT/2000/XP/Vista. My understanding is that a lot of programs that
worked in the 9x era were abandoned by Microsoft because it didn't want to do,
"screwy things," to the OS anymore to work around bugs in them. Not that Microsoft doesn't still have bugs in it's OS. The whole Netscape vs. IE wars were about crucial
dynamically linked libraries not working as documented putting Netscape at a disadvantage in addition to IE being integrated. Microsoft's, "we can make the choice
for the consumer by integrating it," is a fight the company has won so far.

As far as the myth that Microsoft stopped hacking it's own operating system starting
with NT, I don't believe this. Sadly, will ReactOS become just as hacked in order to
run the same software? It may be that it's hard to stabilize ReactOS because of
the long time inappropriate relationship between Microsoft the OS writer and Microsoft
the application software writer? At some point, it's likely that implementation choices
will have to be made where some software will work while other software won't.
Attempt to do every hack necessary to support every popular poorly written
program? I doubt that this will work in the long run. Microsoft dumped dos in an effort
to specifically stop supporting a lot of software. Microsoft is trying to replace XP with
Vista for the same reason. A new OS + new software equals new revenue stream.

Impuning people who wan't to give commercial games on Linux a go is disengenuous.

Haos
Test Team
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Post by Haos »

So if i understood you correctly, you assume ROS is a bad project because it turns people away from Linux?

Now you are living in a completely different world. If someone decides to go linux, its a dramatic, often hard decission. Most of the people using Windows, wont change. Our project aims at those, who dont want to change to linux, those who think that Windows is superior.

Well, many of us also do think that NT is superior over linux. We just dont like Microsoft.

Anyway, in the economics, there is one important rule: more competition means better products. Look at the Windows quasimonopoly... it made the great idea of NT kernel into something much worse than it could be. If Microsoft would be only one of many not the market dominant, NT would be much better... It just HAD to be.

I doubt if i ever install Linux... for various reasons. As i dont want to count on Ms, i support ReactOS

Reacter
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Post by Reacter »

Nute, you know right, that most Linux people couldn't care less if we make it to 1.0? Same applies with Microsoft fans. Plus, we can keep up with Microsoft, we just have to build the core before we build our own API. What good is an API that fails every 5 seconds because of the Kernel? BTW, Linux will not work on 75% of the computers I have seen Vista on. Wonder why...
More ReactOS, please!

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

Post by oiaohm »

Ok I am a Heavy linux person. Gets me into fights with developers from time to time.

Number one Reactos is good from a linux point of view. Something to run inside kvm or the like for that annoying hardware that refuses to work.

Number two Reactos done right will provide more detailed and correct documentation about windows api's that will improve wine. Wine and Reactos even share code in places.

Reacter where in did you get that 75 percent figure. Only about 5 percent of total desktop and laptop machines it does not work on. Note almost all machines with Vista it works perfectly. Its the attached devices where its let down like printers and mobile phones. I don't know where you pulled that 75 percent from. Please note there are still a large percent of older machines where Vista will not install due to lack of drivers. Yes a larger than 5 percent of total market. Linux 5 percent included odd hardware that will not run windows as well.

If that is companies that say that machines don't support Linux they will not support reactos installed either. My figures are operational figures.

You have to know that Intel, SIS, VIA and Nvidia insert motherboard chip set support straight into linux kernel. It is really rare motherboards not based on those chip sets and will not work with the default drivers.

I would love the day when Reactos is stable enough to ask the hardware makers to directly insert drivers.

If its the Trusted Platform Module. Linux has a boot loader for that. Currently reactos boot loader does not support and would have to depend on one of the linux boot loader to get started. Linux has HP to thank for the Trusted Platform Module supporting boot loader.

nute
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:30 am

ReactOS verses Linux fight stupid.

Post by nute »

People coming out and saying that NT is better than Linux. Good grief, that
is about as meaningful as saying that an apple is better than an orange.

Seriously, why are people such NT fanatics? Theoretically, there is no program
designed for an NT style system that won't work on a UNIX style system if ported
properly.

I know using ndiswrapper that a lot of WIndows XP drivers can be used on Linux
systems.

Do we all agree that NT/2000/XP/Vista are anything but gems in the security world? Windows DRM, ask Alexey who resigned as ReactOS president, is easily cracked
and can be readily turned against WIndows Vista users. I've never used Vista
and I never intend to. I have no respect for an operating system that is designed
to decide, regardless of my opinion, for me, significantly reducing performance,
what I can do with a computer I purchased. I also lack respect for Vista because
what I've heard about it suggests that it fails the most elementary usability tests.
People don't want to be asked, "Are you sure you want to do this," constantly.

Name one thing that an NT style kernel can do that is critically important which
a Linux kernel cannot do.

I resent the seemingly popular myth on these boards that people who like ReactOS
hate Linux.

Haos
Test Team
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Post by Haos »

The question what can NT kernel do, that linux kernel cant do, should be given to Alex...
The one thing NT kernel was designed to run POSIX and OS/2 subsystems aside Win32. Linux kernel wasn't.

Wine and CeDeGa arent the perfect solutions and i doubt that they`ll ever be able to run every win32 app.

I resent the seemingly popular myth on these boards that people who like ReactOS hate Linux.

Finally, as i said before, most of us are Windows fanboys (and girls). We refuse to believe the penquinistas propagada about Win NT being worse than Linux. It is not. In many cases we fell it`s better. This is why we spend our time, working on ROS. Nute, if you cant understand this, then it is not a project for you. You are only loosing your time here.
Do we all agree that NT/2000/XP/Vista are anything but gems in the security world? Windows DRM, ask Alexey who resigned as ReactOS president, is easily cracked
We dont agree, not Alexey (Fireball) but Alex (Ion), not ReactOS president but head kernel dev, not cracked.... only a possible override, by some kernel driver. Alex haven`t try to crack PMP (not DRM), but only pointed a possibility. If all your informations are as accurate as those... you just made three serious errors in that sentence...
People coming out and saying that NT is better than Linux. Good grief, that is about as meaningful as saying that an apple is better than an orange.
Then when you say that Linux is better than Windows, it`s AS meaningfull as saying that orange is better than apple?
I've never used Vista and I never intend to.
Then how you can question the Vista security?
I resent the seemingly popular myth on these boards that people who like ReactOS hate Linux.
Now you are wrong, again. It`s not like Windows (or ROS) people are bashing Linux, it is the opposite. For example, read comments under the OSNews thread about Alex leaving ROS. Most of Windows fanboys DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT LINUX. Its all those new linux converts who have to do everything to support themselves in their idea of dropping Windows for Linux, those are the bashers.

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
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Post by oiaohm »

Nute should have been the IRC disagreement between Alex Ion and me.

There are minor weakness in Windows security design. Nothing that cannot be overcome. Like providing admin controlled application injection protection. More careful control over dll overrides.

Most of the major weaknesses are poor defaults. If every user run as root under linux it would be a sitting duck too.

Window NT was built to run subsystems. Linux was extended to run dos and wine. Process management and memory management sections of linux has alterations for wine. Yes wine and clones programs is the only process that uses them. Yes you find out this the hard way when you try running wine under BSD. Linux has binfmt for loading equals to subsystems.

Linux is built to work with hypervisor, usermode and OS's like L4 as a subsystem. Long term there is no reason why Linux kernel could not be a subsystem inside Reactos.

Both OS's were designed with different ideas. Windows NT base design is not really a problem. The problem is what Microsoft did to it. Or more like did not do to it.

It gets even worse when its Win nt vs Linux vs Minux. There is no correct answer there.

Haos please be on notice having a kernel no longer puts reactos ahead of wine.

Ged
Developer
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Post by Ged »

oiaohm wrote: Haos please be on notice having a kernel no longer puts reactos ahead of wine.
So how do Wine intend to run NT drivers?

cppm
Posts: 289
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Post by cppm »

It seems to me that there's this idea that reactos can only be defined in terms of militant action against windows NT and/or linux, that the people who are crafting it are only doing so by virtue of their desire to see one or the otehr dead. Or they take a rational and measured analysis of how much coding = how much 'work done'. Harking back to the old IBM management tactics where they rewarded programmers for 'lines of code written'.

So, nute, the major problem with your assertion that the developers would be better of spending their time developing for linux lies in your seemingly blissful ignorance of why they would choose to work on a project such as this.

They like it.

Simple, it's the opensource way, a person codes to 'scrath an itch' as ESR put's it, and to tell tehm otherwise will probably result in a considerable loss in code quality. To tell a programmer who's hapilly working on XYZ project to come over and work for no money on ABC project because 'you'll be put to better use' is like telling a fish to come out onto land because 'it'll evolve'.

But what else has nute challenged us with?

To argue that there is no demand for a project for this is an easily transparent argument - what are we all doing here if not out of interest? The above factor applies, the fact that people are working on it, and more developers are arriving, implies demand in the opensource world. Not market research.

To argue that the project is redundant shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of FOSS, can you tell me any other project with freely available, redistridutable and modifyable source code that is doing what this project is doing? Now to some people the libre factor is not important, I regard that as relatively naive, but it's their choice, but that still wouldn't imply that the reactos developers 'shouldn't' work on what they choose?

I could go on... in the end nute you're just going to have to stop hiding behind inconsistencies thinly veilied as subtly and just tell the world what's your point?

PS: I don't know about what you see... but when I click on that link to the 'linux games company' all I see is a parking page.

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
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Post by oiaohm »

If needed another linux kernel alteration preferred user space. Note wine does not have a option. Most game copy protection is a driver. And a big number of wine users are game users.

There is limited hardware support planed at moment. Virtual usb controller based on libusb. Usb devices make up the largest percent of problem devices with linux.

The two most important problems first. Games and Usb devices.

Windows kernel space now have there own service under linux from wine.

Mrkaras
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Post by Mrkaras »

isn't wine the whole point? you want to run windows programs so you start some other OS (linux) and then emulate windows? how much sense is in that!? just run Reactos and go straight there!

I don't like windows, but that is because of faults in its implementation. I don't like linux, that is because of its design, its community, its software, its lies...

Floyd
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Post by Floyd »

Haos wrote:The one thing NT kernel was designed to run POSIX and OS/2 subsystems aside Win32. Linux kernel wasn't.
nope. most, if not all, linux distributions are more POSIX compliant than Windows NT. not until a user has installed the optional services for unix does Windows become "fully" compliant (and then will be more complete than a linux system). and this would make sense since POSIX is the UNIX API and linux was created as a way to have a freely available implementation of UNIX for home computers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX

and to say that the linux kernel wasn't designed to be POSIX compliant, when the whole friggin' point of linux was to be the poor man's UNIX, says to me you should look up on your history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

as far as OS/2 subsystems, the subsystems are only compliant with OS/2 1.x text mode. modern linux distributions may no longer support OS/2 (i'm not sure i haven't even seen an OS/2 application in years), but when i checked out linux in college most distributions supported a higher version of OS/2 than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT

more to the point, does anyone even use OS/2 text mode applications anymore?
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Floyd
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Post by Floyd »

Mrkaras wrote:isn't wine the whole point? you want to run windows programs so you start some other OS (linux) and then emulate windows? how much sense is in that!? just run Reactos and go straight there!

I don't like windows, but that is because of faults in its implementation. I don't like linux, that is because of its design, its community, its software, its lies...
i disagree. there is some real good software available for linux. however, i don't like its community much--they get all l33t on you. but its lies ... ?
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

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