Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, drop it in here. (not to be used as a chat/nonsense section)

Moderator: Moderator Team

MadWolf
Posts: 544
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:19 am
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by MadWolf »

Konata wrote:This all reminds me of how mad everyone was when IE 4 was included with Windows 98. I'm really used to people nitpicking new versions of Windows.
I'd just like to remind everyone that OS X, iOS, Android, and Ubuntu (Unity Desktop) all have these super scary spying features, and you can't turn them off. I feel like this is an example of "it's easier to say sorry than to ask for permission". Microsoft goes though the trouble of actually letting you turn off these spying features, but the simple fact that they let you know about them by asking for them is apparently their real sin here.
I will say the forced updates are annoying though. I might deactivate the update service because of that. It's not the end of the world though, I'll just turn it back on when I want to update. Apparently I'm the only person who knows how to do that.

Android, and Ubuntu are free os
windows 10 update is Free for 1 year
windows 10 ("Free update") the forced updates can be a good thing most computer users are computer illiterate but going by the past i do not want forced updates just in case there is a bad update there may be under the hood changes but the bad changes out ways the good changes the constant push to metro apps imho is stupid they have deprecated the windows update in the control panel so to update windows you need to open the pc settings metro app on my install of windows 8.1 i never open metro apps

Microsoft are getting demonized because they are not learning why windows 8 / 8.1 was a failure they learned why vista was a failure and they release windows 7 but they have not learned so windows 10 is going to be a failure the 1 year Free update is a marketing ploy how many have got the free upgrade then downgraded back to windows 7 or 8 i have downgraded back to windows 8.1

if windows 10 was not free how many that got the free update wooden have went to buy windows 10
Last edited by MadWolf on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Z98 »

dsp8195 wrote: As an example I've experienced firsthand - I've spent some time learning differences between DirectX9 and DirectX11 SDK. Changes for the sake of changes is all I can see

This is how the diffuse texture was set in dx9:

Code: Select all

     g_EffectList[k].Effect->SetTexture("diffuse", tex);
And this is how the code transformed when it moved to dx11:

Code: Select all

     ID3DX11EffectShaderResourceVariable     *shadertexture=NULL;
     ID3DX11EffectVariable     *param=NULL;
     param=g_EffectList[k].Effect->GetVariableByName(st.ParameterName);
     if (param)
     {
          shadertexture=param->AsShaderResource();
          if (shadertexture)
          {
               hr=S_OK;
               ID3D11ShaderResourceView     *tex=(ID3D11ShaderResourceView*)st.Texture;
               hr=shadertexture->SetResource((ID3D11ShaderResourceView*)tex);
          }
     }
Can you feel the difference? CAN YOU FEEL IT?
Let's see, off hand in the DX9 version I see a potentially extremely opaque function call that could fail without giving any indication and then you would have to backtrack to see whether the failure is because the "tex" shader variable does not exist, whether the tex variable itself is buggered, etc. In the DX11 version I see an explicit requirement to specify a variable with at least two distinct points of failure that will readily point you to where the problem in the code is. Though I would have thought instead of the null check you would be using the IsValid method on the returned objects instead. So no, I really don't see this as change for the sake of change, I see this as Microsoft trying to push through best practices so that it's easier to track bugs in one's code, something that is especially important when one is working on a large team where multiple people are liable to end up touching the same bit of code over time.

I've had the questionable pleasure of spending considerable amounts of time working my way through Microsoft's media libraries, both their old DirectShow stuff and the newer Media Foundation stuff. Both tend to be bloody opaque and DShow has been steadily getting broken over the past few Windows releases while MF still hasn't gotten all the features DShow used to have. Is it irritating? Yes. Am I annoyed at Microsoft for the mess? Certainly. But that does not mean I'm dismissive of the newer stuff since it is getting updated and its rough edges smoothed out. The stuff that's changed, I try and determine the cause for the change before I reserve judgment. The features that got dropped, I and other developers poke Microsoft with a pointy stick whenever we can. But to believe that Microsoft is going to sit still and never inflict breaking changes upon us developers is to be frank naive. There is a lot of cruft in Windows. I want them to give us something better than win32 for desktop applications. That's likely never going to happen now with them going full in with their universal app thing, but that doesn't mean I just dismiss every new piece of technology that comes out. If someone ever gets around to producing an alternative implementation of the WinRT system like what Wine did with the Win32 subsystem, they'd have my full and enthusiastic support.

User avatar
Konata
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Konata »

MadWolf wrote:Android, and Ubuntu are free os
windows 10 update is Free for 1 year
windows 10 ("Free update") the forced updates can be a good thing most computer users are computer illiterate but going by the past i do not want forced updates just in case there is a bad update there may be under the hood changes but the bad changes out ways the good changes the constant push to metro apps imho is stupid they have deprecated the windows update in the control panel so to update windows you need to open the pc settings metro app on my install of windows 8.1 i never open metro apps

Microsoft are getting demonized because they are not learning why windows 8 / 8.1 was a failure they learned why vista was a failure and they release windows 7 but they have not learned so windows 10 is going to be a failure the 1 year Free update is a marketing ploy how many have got the free upgrade then downgraded back to windows 7 or 8 i have downgraded back to windows 8.1

if windows 10 was not free how many that got the free update wooden have went to buy windows 10
Well you have fun with that.

I'm with Z98 in saying y'all just hate MS for being MS and new things because they're new things. Metro does have some dumb decisions (like no error messages when crashing) but they have a lot of cool features that are really desirable. I'm really excited for the seamless transition between desktop and phone interfaces. Actually an obscure little website I go to recently did that, it goes to mobile view just from changing the browser window's size, and it's really awesome. I also adore the fact that you can use JavaScript/HTML/CSS. Windows ME's little thing it had going on with writing interfaces in HTML inspired me to make an interface like that in a web browser. I never did it, but both Microsoft and I knew the future was web pages that were frontends to applications, and it's really brilliant.

Also you do know that native Win32 applications are still usable, right? If you don't like Metro applications then just don't use them. And if you don't even want to use the settings application because of some weird defiance of Metro, then I have to say that is really eccentric. In fact I don't even get not using Metro applications in general. Do you also not use .NET applications?

Also you're not specifying what you mean by "free", libre or gratis? Either way, it doesn't change the fact that Android and Unity spy on you, without even telling you, unlike Windows 10. Also Chrome does as well, and it has forced updates. But I'm guessing a lot of you don't use Chrome so whatever. Just saying. I do understand the concern of a potential broken forced update, especially considering that's already happened (at least during the beta testing where that was mildly excusable), but looking at things practically, I've been updating my Windows 7 machine all the time and nothing bad ever happened. In fact if I just set Windows 10 to let me choose when to shut down after updates, then it's already mirroring the settings on my Windows 7 machine. I'm not a child that only cares about something when you take it away from me. If I wasn't using something then I wasn't using it, end of. And if you're one of those people who like to hack your installation and mess with things you aren't advised to, then you're smart enough to disable the update service anyway.

Anyway, nobody's forcing you to install Windows 10, regardless of how persistent the update icon is. If you want to wait 5 years for 7's end of service, then go ahead. Windows 10, it's functionality and ecosystem will certainly be ironed out by then. Hell I'm not even using 10 right now, it's never a good idea to use any version of Windows right after release.

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Z98 »

I'll be frank, as a system developer, the idea that HTML/CSS is somehow appropriate for desktop applications always struck me as backward. All the stuff that HTML and CSS are just now getting, and only because people are abusing the crap out of javascript to pull it off, us programmers working on desktop applications have had for years. I understand MS' sentiment of trying to appeal to as many potential app devs as possible, but from the perspective of those of us already doing desktop work, MS is expending effort just getting HTML/CSS tooling to parity where they could have been improving the tools we were already using. There is a lot of resentment from the 'old hands' as it were, not that we can't learn the new stuff, but when the new stuff doesn't even improve upon the old stuff in measurable ways, that's not going to endear the company's roadmap to us. MS bungled that badly with 8 and their approach with 10 is not exactly as nice as a lot of us would prefer either. But I'll choose to use what I need from them and ignore what doesn't suit my needs. As it is for certain tasks there really aren't any better frameworks. You'd think that something as mundane as controlling a webcam would be straightforward. Ha, ha, ha.

MadWolf
Posts: 544
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:19 am
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by MadWolf »

hi
Konata wrote:I'm with Z98 in saying y'all just hate MS for being MS and new things because they're new things
:lol: :lol: No that was just two dumb Things there is a lot more dumb Things in windows 10
Konata wrote:Also you're not specifying what you mean by "free", libre or gratis?
good point
Konata wrote: Do you also not use .NET applications?
yes i do use .NET applications i like writing vb.net / C# code but i do not like WPF Windows Presentation Foundation
Konata wrote: if you're one of those people who like to hack your installation and mess with things you aren't advised to, then you're smart enough to disable the update service anyway.
:lol: :lol: i want to choose how i update my computer i shouldn't need to disable the update service i have windows update set to download updates but let me choose whether to install them
Konata wrote:Anyway, nobody's forcing you to install Windows 10, regardless of how persistent the update icon is. If you want to wait 5 years for 7's end of service,
i am using windows 8.1

Code: Select all

Client operating systems      Latest update or service pack      End of mainstream support      End of extended support
Windows 7 *                        Service Pack 1                             January 13, 2015                     January 14, 2020
Windows 8                          Windows 8.1                                January 9, 2018                      January 10, 2023

User avatar
Swyter
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Spain ← Europe ← Planet Earth ← Milky Way ← Universe

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Swyter »

Z98 wrote:I'll be frank, as a system developer, the idea that HTML/CSS is somehow appropriate for desktop applications always struck me as backward. All the stuff that HTML and CSS are just now getting, and only because people are abusing the crap out of javascript to pull it off, us programmers working on desktop applications have had for years. I understand MS' sentiment of trying to appeal to as many potential app devs as possible, but from the perspective of those of us already doing desktop work, MS is expending effort just getting HTML/CSS tooling to parity where they could have been improving the tools we were already using. There is a lot of resentment from the 'old hands' as it were, not that we can't learn the new stuff, but when the new stuff doesn't even improve upon the old stuff in measurable ways, that's not going to endear the company's roadmap to us. MS bungled that badly with 8 and their approach with 10 is not exactly as nice as a lot of us would prefer either. But I'll choose to use what I need from them and ignore what doesn't suit my needs. As it is for certain tasks there really aren't any better frameworks. You'd think that something as mundane as controlling a webcam would be straightforward. Ha, ha, ha.
The whole situation with desktop web apps is bizarrely comical. They try to appeal to the lowest common denominator by importing the hip technologies the JQuery script kiddies use nowadays, instead of trying to improve or giving another thought about how native, bare metal programs should be built.

I mean, it was bad enough with .NET and all the VB, C# shenanigans, plus all the other Java wannabes for mediocre programmers; at least made a bit of sense for corporate environments. But this is layers upon layers of virtualization, complex JITs and bytecode. And guess what, you can squeeze performance from hardware only so much, at some point you are going to face the reality of not writing crappy bloated software.

The reverse pyramid of talented people working to make fast platforms for terrible ad-ladden, sandboxed, walled-gardened, low density app bros can no longer support itself.

I'm still baffled, and I'm pretty sure the guy who created the HTML syntax is too.
External patch contributor for ux/user-mode/l10n/winapi. Sometimes I fix a bit of everything everywhere.

PurpleGurl
Posts: 1788
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:11 am
Location: USA

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by PurpleGurl »

I get it on the lowest common denominator thing. Shoot, they might as well have a Windows for Ghettos version.

alexei
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:29 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by alexei »

dsp8195 wrote:Dear Z98, if the company does not abide its customers' wishes, sooner or later it will get kicked off the market. If the company tries to enslave its userbase, it will eventually get shut down (both literally and figuratively speaking). It's impossible to "demonize" devil nor justify what he's doing. If Microsoft wants to bury itself alive - let it go, don't be its advocate. This thread was started as a mere digest of controversial and outright unwanted changes that were brought under Windows 10 "brand", and I hope people who will read it get informed enough to make their own choice.
I agree! However we have to take in account MS de-facto monopoly position and, say it softly, unethical business practices.
MS technical policies, particularly strong orientation on pleasing software developers with new features and interfaces (that come with a lot of bugs and security holes in them), lead to the really terrible situation with security and privacy we have today.
The stream of "security updates" is a shame. It's MS, which made goverments to become afraid of cyber-attacs. People and businesses are suffering from security breaches. MS has to be punished for that.
Please, don't try to tell me security holes are unavoidable. Would our world be better if MS spend last 12 years fixing bugs in server 2003 instead of pleasing developers and attracting users?
Don't people deserve reliable software (I mean life-support software quality)? Are they brainwashed by MS (and, unfortunately, many software developers) to the extent of not seeng a real tragedy in the software industry?

User avatar
Konata
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Konata »

Actually the latest big security threats were from server software like SSL and browser plugins like Flash. In fact I can't remember any wildly huge security threats in Windows since 2000 with that buffer overflow bug in the network stack. I mean, there was that font rendering issue a few days ago, but that was fixed immediately (unlike Flash and a ton of open source software like SSL where it takes them weeks or months to do jack all)

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Z98 »

Your supposition is based on a false premise. There is no such thing as perfect code, and I am perfectly happy to repeat the claim that there will always be bugs. Why? Because code is written by humans and humans by definition are fallible. As complexity increases the probability of bugs increases right along with it, at I would say a faster rate. The only software that comes close to being bug-free that I'm aware of is the stuff that ran on the space shuttle. Why was that thing close to perfect? Because it used computing systems from the 70s that were effectively unchanged over the three decades that it was in service, its functionality was extremely limited, and the cost of development relative to its feature set was extremely high. Also the people using it were highly trained specialists who know not to do stupid crap when using it, which probably excludes well over 90% of the current world population from touching such a system. Compared to something like Server 2k3, proportionally to achieve a similar level of reliability would likely take well over a century and on the order of billions if not trillions of dollars at the current valuation. And that's if you continued using the same level of computing technology as was present when 2k3 was first released. Note that we had just gotten x64 from AMD at the time. So we'd be stuck at 2003 era computers for well over a century if you had it your way. We're talking about Pentium 4s, which to be frank are really crappy microarchitectures, and Athlons, which were better but are effectively obsolete compared to the stuff Intel has nowadays. Considering the productivity boost society in general has enjoyed thanks to access to more computing power and better tooling to make use of said computing power, from a cost benefit analysis intentionally stalling technological progress for that long to try to create an absolutely secure platform is a non-starter.

NT5.2, while a nice architecture for its time, has been superseded by many of the improvements made in the NT6 series. There's a reason a graphics driver crashing no longer takes down the entire OS anymore. There's a reason that privilege escalation is now basically mandatory for attacks on Windows platforms. All of these are due to major structural changes that happened in the NT design that would never have happened if you were solely fixing bugs in existing functionality, because these defenses are new functionality. So while in theory NT5.2 could be improved so that local bugs within it are eliminated, it would still remain vulnerable to an entire category of exploits because it completely lacks defenses for them. So, no, the world really would not be better off if MS did nothing but squash bugs in Windows Server 2003.

alexei
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:29 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by alexei »

Z98 wrote:There is no such thing as perfect code, and I am perfectly happy to repeat the claim that there will always be bugs.
Here, I would agree with you. Actually, by "bugs" I meant not just errors in code, but also flaws in the system design, which allowed these errors to impact system stability and security.
Z98 wrote:major structural changes that happened in the NT design that would never have happened if you were solely fixing bugs in existing functionality, because these defenses are new functionality.
In my view, these "structural changes" should be considered bug fixes.
Z98 wrote:As complexity increases the probability of bugs increases right along with it, at I would say a faster rate.
Unfortunately, software complexity often increases a a result of attempts to please developers and attract end-users, or/and because it's simpler to implement some heavy solution instead of thinking of how to make it lightweight and elegant, and it's not just MS :(
In my view, Conhost, SXS, UEFI, and IPV6 (not MS) were done with a motto "Why should I make it simple, if I can make it complex?".
Z98 wrote:Compared to something like Server 2k3, proportionally to achieve a similar level of reliability would likely take well over a century
Not a "century", examples: QNX (bug-free?), Minix-3 (restart of failed drivers), Genode (security).

So, my major point is that MS prioritized pleasing developers and attracting end-users way over security and stability, and intentionally neglected end-user privacy. It's sad to say, but we all allowed that :(

User avatar
Konata
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Konata »

alexei wrote:
Z98 wrote:major structural changes that happened in the NT design that would never have happened if you were solely fixing bugs in existing functionality, because these defenses are new functionality.
In my view, these "structural changes" should be considered bug fixes.
That would have broken compatibility with countless applications. Beyond marketing purposes, there's a reason there are different versions of Windows.
ROS can't even implement UAC because it would break a lot of applications.
It's easier to say an application works on this version and up instead of this service pack and up, especially since most people probably don't even know what a service pack is.

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Z98 »

Err, yeah, what Konata said. If you're willing to give up every application you currently use and wait and pay for people to write replacements, sure, you could start from scratch with a much more robust design. That honestly might be even more expensive than trying to bullet-proof NT though.

erkinalp
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by erkinalp »

Konata wrote: ROS can't even implement UAC because it would break a lot of applications.
It's easier to say an application works on this version and up instead of this service pack and up, especially since most people probably don't even know what a service pack is.
It can because UAC has an off switch in Microsoft's implementation. It is the user's fault use the computer as an administrator all the time, and developer's fault to assume administrative privileges are always granted in a multi-user OS. UAC is not enough, either, something like PolicyKit with per-application (maybe also per-user) policy setting is something I really miss in a Windows-like OS.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

User avatar
Konata
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Windows 10 is officially a spyware and an adware

Post by Konata »

You have to remember NT was designed back when people used DOS and Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x. People didn't care about security then. All people did with computers was run a spreadsheet application in a monotasking environment on a few megabytes of memory. Quite frankly I'm astonished at NT's architecture and complexity for the era it was made in, it's like looking at an ancient pyramid or the antikythera mechanism. There are just some things that cannot be done without dramatically altering the system to the point of making it a hostile development environment.

Microsoft has dipped it's feet into other operating systems, like Singularity/Midori. But it's a little moot. People rely on NT, NT works, they have the strategy to modify NT as much as they can before breaking anything. You also have to keep in mind that Microsoft must develop for the average joe. They can't afford to add complex security measures. Vista wasn't even that naggy, and people universally panned it for that little bit of extra security it added. People just about accepted 7 with it's audacious "Are you sure you want to run this?" prompt. Anything more than that, and people will hate it.

I think Modern is trying to solve a lot of these issues though. I think you need to request resources for applications like you do in Android. I'm not entirely sure actually. But I'm sure Modern is there because NT's security measures are a little bit outdated, and Microsoft knows it. It might be a little audacious, but I consider Modern to be the successor to the Windows API. The WinAPI was made to allow people to seamlessly transition from Windows 9x to Windows NT, and Modern is doing the same for x86 to ARM, and possibly future operating systems like Midori, if Microsoft still cares about it (I don't think they do but, who knows).

Of course that's all conjecture.
You just have to keep in mind, Microsoft is a business and a business first. Average Joe is the customer, and the customer is always right. The Developer is also a customer, and he's always right too, and he wants his applications to keep working. If you want extra and, in my opinion, annoying security infrastructures, use any kind of Unix. God, I hated having to chmod everything I wanted to run.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest