what do you think of Windows 10

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what do you think of Windows 10

good
4
27%
ok
5
33%
bad
0
No votes
really bad
2
13%
never again while it see the light of day on my computer
4
27%
 
Total votes: 15

Webunny
Posts: 1201
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:
Webunny wrote:In fact, if what you said above were true, they couldn't have released win 98, because they had already used win 95. It has a high likelihood of being bullocks, thus.
It's because of the fact that there was both a Windows 95 and a Windows 98 that programmers searched for an OS string starting with "Windows 9" to cover both versions. They can search for all versions of Windows 4.x, without detecting Windows NT 4.0, with the following code:

Code: Select all

if (os.startsWith("Windows 9") || os.equals("Windows Me")) {
searchcode finds 4342 results for that type of check.
But since not everything that worked on 95 works on 98 and vice versa, it also means if they cover 'both' with one check, they did not make any distinction between the two. So they didn't care what programs checked for '9' then. Both programs are pretty obsolete, and not many modern programs (MS cares about) would keep checking for those versions anyway. win98 lays 15 years behind us now. And if they really cared, as said, they could easily remedy it.

After all, on the principe of the matter, one could otherwise say the same of windows 10. "What if some progrmas check on 'Win 1x'?" Following the above logic, they can't use anything with an "1" in the first digit anymore, since programs might check on that. Same kind of argument. I really doubt they'll be bothered by it. (In fact, theorethically, even now it could be some progs would check on "1" to check for win version 1.0. ;) )


I'm not sure why we disgress so much about this issue. Even if there were trivial aftertoughts about the use of skipping a number, it's clear as daylight the main objective was for marketing-purposes. In fact, it's not the first time, and it won't be the last time neither.

DOSGuy
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by DOSGuy »

Webunny wrote:But since not everything that worked on 95 works on 98 and vice versa, it also means if they cover 'both' with one check, they did not make any distinction between the two. So they didn't care what programs checked for '9' then. Both programs are pretty obsolete, and not many modern programs (MS cares about) would keep checking for those versions anyway. win98 lays 15 years behind us now.
It's because those versions are obsolete that programs need to check for them and report their incompatibility. Indeed, the reason why they don't make a distinction between 95 and 98 is because neither version is supported.

As for a check for "Windows 1" flagging Windows 10, there's no need to check for Windows 1.0 because it was a 16-bit "operating system" that can't run 32- and 64-bit PE executables anyway. Open any Windows executable file in Notepad and you'll see the same thing: the first two letters are "MZ", followed shortly after by something like this:

"This program cannot be run in DOS mode." or
"This program must be run under Win32"

Every Windows executable starts with a small MZ executable that reports incompatibility with DOS, which Windows ignores and jumps past if the rest of the executable is of a type that it supports. If the program is a Win16 application, you'll find the letters "NE" not far after that message. If the program is a Win32/64 application, you'll see the letters "PE". Win16 operating systems will execute NE applications, but they won't attempt to run PE applications. Windows 1.0 through 3.11 will fall back to running the MZ program and terminate gracefully if they encounter a PE application, so there's simply isn't any need for PE applications to detect a specific 16-bit version of Windows (1.0 through 3.11). Indeed, attempting to detect a specific version of Win16 could accidentally flag Windows NT 3.1, a 32-bit OS that might be compatible, so it would undesirable to search for "Windows 3.1" even beyond the fact that there's no need to.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

middings
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by middings »

Microsoft's Raymond Chen explains why Microsoft Windows 95 reported its version number as 3.95 instead of 4.0.
Bad version number checks

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:
Webunny wrote:But since not everything that worked on 95 works on 98 and vice versa, it also means if they cover 'both' with one check, they did not make any distinction between the two. So they didn't care what programs checked for '9' then. Both programs are pretty obsolete, and not many modern programs (MS cares about) would keep checking for those versions anyway. win98 lays 15 years behind us now.
It's because those versions are obsolete that programs need to check for them and report their incompatibility. Indeed, the reason why they don't make a distinction between 95 and 98 is because neither version is supported.

As for a check for "Windows 1" flagging Windows 10, there's no need to check for Windows 1.0 because it was a 16-bit "operating system" that can't run 32- and 64-bit PE executables anyway. Open any Windows executable file in Notepad and you'll see the same thing: the first two letters are "MZ", followed shortly after by something like this:

"This program cannot be run in DOS mode." or
"This program must be run under Win32"

Every Windows executable starts with a small MZ executable that reports incompatibility with DOS, which Windows ignores and jumps past if the rest of the executable is of a type that it supports. If the program is a Win16 application, you'll find the letters "NE" not far after that message. If the program is a Win32/64 application, you'll see the letters "PE". Win16 operating systems will execute NE applications, but they won't attempt to run PE applications. Windows 1.0 through 3.11 will fall back to running the MZ program and terminate gracefully if they encounter a PE application, so there's simply isn't any need for PE applications to detect a specific 16-bit version of Windows (1.0 through 3.11). Indeed, attempting to detect a specific version of Win16 could accidentally flag Windows NT 3.1, a 32-bit OS that might be compatible, so it would undesirable to search for "Windows 3.1" even beyond the fact that there's no need to.
However, this can not be maintained. By version 15, version 10 will be obsolete too. If one keeps this up, no numbers can be used in the end, because there might be programs who flag is wrongly.Will Ms jump with tens instead? Until it reaches 70, because that could be seen as '7', again? I doubt they will.

The whole thing is besides the point, however. As justincase rightfully pointed out, it would be as just as easy and trivial to make the OS name string as "Windows Nine", for instance. Just like going from win 3.11 to win95, going from win8 to win10 has little to do with anything but marketing. It's backed up by their own spin too: "It's SO novel, it's warranted to call it 10'. Which it is not.

middings
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by middings »

Webunny wrote:It's backed up by their own spin too: "It's SO novel, it's warranted to call it 10'. Which it is not.
That is called using lemons to make lemonade.

justincase
Posts: 441
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by justincase »

What I don't get Webunny is this: If you don't think that Windows 9x is the reason that Microsoft decided to skip Windows 9 then why do you care so much that you have to try to convince everyone else that it can't be true? (rhetoric)

And please don't drag me in as if something I said supports your position. As they chose the name "Windows 10" they obviously wanted to stick with a number for this version, so calling it "Windows Nine" could easily have been discounted for breaking the theme that they're currently using.

Also it has been pointed out elsewhere that the English "Nine" sounds very similar to the German "Nein", which means "No", so the possibility of losing a large portion of German buyers by trying to sell them "Windows No" may also have had something to do with their decision.
(similarly the "Chevrolet Nova" sold poorly in Spanish speaking areas, this has sometimes been attributed to the fact that it sounds much like "Chevrolet no va", which basically translate to "the Chevrolet won't go")

Adding the fact that Windows 1-3.11 were 16-bit and don't need to be checked for, and the fact that the two 9x versions both do not support a number of things that Windows NT 3.1 and newer did support makes 'starts with "Windows 9"' a fairly common misuse of the available API's, and any other 'starts with "Windows x"' misuse pretty unlikely, the possible exception being 'starts with "Windows NT"', but seeing as Windows NT supported more things than Windows 9x, and that it's pretty unlikely that Microsoft will choose to go back to calling their OS's "Windows NT x" anyway, this is not nearly as likely to be checked for in this way, and even if it does end up being a concert it is pretty unlikely that it will cause the kinds of issues that having a new version of Windows called "Windows 9" could.

Another thing that just crossed my mind is that Microsoft already doesn't seem to know how to count, so perhaps they're saving the "Windows 9" name for later, e.g. when the NT kernel version (eventually) actually reaches 9.x, you never know.

Note - I'm not saying that any of this is actually why, or not why Microsoft went from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. Only that these are possibilities.

Also: can we PLEASE get back on topic?
Has anyone here used the Windows 10 Technical Preview? What kinds of bugs have you come across?
How well does the multiple desktops feature work?
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Webunny »

justincase wrote:What I don't get Webunny is this: If you don't think that Windows 9x is the reason that Microsoft decided to skip Windows 9 then why do you care so much that you have to try to convince everyone else that it can't be true? (rhetoric)

And please don't drag me in as if something I said supports your position. As they chose the name "Windows 10" they obviously wanted to stick with a number for this version, so calling it "Windows Nine" could easily have been discounted for breaking the theme that they're currently using.

Also it has been pointed out elsewhere that the English "Nine" sounds very similar to the German "Nein", which means "No", so the possibility of losing a large portion of German buyers by trying to sell them "Windows No" may also have had something to do with their decision.
(similarly the "Chevrolet Nova" sold poorly in Spanish speaking areas, this has sometimes been attributed to the fact that it sounds much like "Chevrolet no va", which basically translate to "the Chevrolet won't go")

Adding the fact that Windows 1-3.11 were 16-bit and don't need to be checked for, and the fact that the two 9x versions both do not support a number of things that Windows NT 3.1 and newer did support makes 'starts with "Windows 9"' a fairly common misuse of the available API's, and any other 'starts with "Windows x"' misuse pretty unlikely, the possible exception being 'starts with "Windows NT"', but seeing as Windows NT supported more things than Windows 9x, and that it's pretty unlikely that Microsoft will choose to go back to calling their OS's "Windows NT x" anyway, this is not nearly as likely to be checked for in this way, and even if it does end up being a concert it is pretty unlikely that it will cause the kinds of issues that having a new version of Windows called "Windows 9" could.

Another thing that just crossed my mind is that Microsoft already doesn't seem to know how to count, so perhaps they're saving the "Windows 9" name for later, e.g. when the NT kernel version (eventually) actually reaches 9.x, you never know.

Note - I'm not saying that any of this is actually why, or not why Microsoft went from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. Only that these are possibilities.

Also: can we PLEASE get back on topic?
Has anyone here used the Windows 10 Technical Preview? What kinds of bugs have you come across?
How well does the multiple desktops feature work?

If we're talking about 'possibilities' then let me be short: in an endless universum, everything is possible.

I never talk about possibilities, since it's a fruitless endeavour. I talk about likelihoods. And it's more likely than not, that the consideration of marketing was the prime reason why they skipped from win8 to win10 than anything else.

Trying to convince? You start with a false premise. I'm not trying to convince anything or anyone, I'm merely debating the value of the counter-arguments given, and I find them lacking. I'm not for or anti-MS, so I don't care one way or another about what people are convinced of, I only care about the logic of the arguments given. Note that I never said it's 'impossible' that MS didn't have *any* other consideration, I'm saying that it's not very likely it would be the main reason for it, trumping the obvious and rather in-your-face fact of it being foremost a marketing-stunt. It's MS itself that uses it as marketingstunt, so why ignore the most likely reason, to go for a far weaker 'explanation'?

As for dragging you into this: I do no such thing. I'm using your argument, which is something else. I use valid arguments, whether they are from me or another. You are free to be involved or not be involved in the debate, it's fully up to you, and I can't 'drag' anyone into anything who doesn't want to be dragged in. However, an argument that is valid can be used, whether the author likes that or not. The counterargument that maybe Germans would think it means 'nein' and MS lays awake because of that, borders on the ludicrous, so I give that a very, very low likelihood.

Z98
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Z98 »

How much experience do you actually have with programming? Cause based off of your skepticism of the potential issues with the "Windows 9*" check it's hard to believe that you've worked with any codebase of any moderate complexity. For any reasonably experienced programmer, the problem is very believable. Code written in the era where you actually needed to care about Windows 9x, even if to explicitly error out with a statement that it is not supported, tended to be incredibly sloppy. The abuse of non-standard behavior or bugs was so prolific that to retain backwards compatibility Microsoft had to create dedicated compatibility shims for specific, widely used applications. And since Microsoft's biggest saving grace in the corporate environment is its backward compatibility for applications, it is quite fanatical about it and it is one of the few companies where an engineering decision can override marketing. You seem to be basing a lot of your assertions on only a superficial understanding of the challenges of software engineering, whereas the people who have been arguing against you have been showing considerably deeper understanding of the subject. That you keep persisting indicates that you don't desire to learn from their greater experience.

justincase
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by justincase »

I believe that most likely Microsoft took a large number of factors, some of which I detailed above, some of which have been detailed by others both here and elsewhere, and decided based not on any single factor, but on the larger group of them that "Windows 9" was not a suitable name for their 'next' OS.
Personally I think that "Windows 10" was a stupid choice, but hey, I'm not Microsoft, so it's not my decision to make.

Another (likely smaller) factor which may have contributed to the "Windows 10" name is that "Windows 7" was version 6.1 (6+1=7), "Windows 8" was version 6.2 (6+2=8), "Windows 8.1" was version 6.3 (6+3=9 & 8+1=9), and now "Windows 10" is 6.4 (6+4=10). Again, this is just a possible contributing factor, likely not the 'reason' in and of itself that Microsoft decided to call it "Windows 10".

Now, does anybody here have enough practical experience with the Windows 10 Technical Preview to answer my questions?
justincase wrote:Can we PLEASE get back on topic?
Has anyone here used the Windows 10 Technical Preview? What kinds of bugs have you come across?
How well does the multiple desktops feature work?
I reserve the right to ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

MadWolf
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by MadWolf »

justincase wrote:Has anyone here used the Windows 10 Technical Preview? What kinds of bugs have you come across?
i haven't tested it too much because the drivers for the pci express are not working so when i trey to install my graphic drivers the graphic card is not detected the error i am getting two or the pci express root port have a Code 12
This device cannot find enough free resources that it can use. (Code 12)
If you want to use this device, you will need to disable one of the other devices on this system.
I have install windows 7 and windows 8 RTM on my pc in the past and never had this problem
justincase wrote:How well does the multiple desktops feature work?
i haven't tested this too much but the multiple desktops in kde works better in windows 10 you need to click the i con in the tray then the desktop you want

imho this is what windows 8/8.1 should have been a small step in the right direction now all they need to add is the classic theme and the classic start menu i may test the explorer-new from the shell-experiments branch on windows 10

Webunny
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:How much experience do you actually have with programming? Cause based off of your skepticism of the potential issues with the "Windows 9*" check it's hard to believe that you've worked with any codebase of any moderate complexity. For any reasonably experienced programmer, the problem is very believable. Code written in the era where you actually needed to care about Windows 9x, even if to explicitly error out with a statement that it is not supported, tended to be incredibly sloppy. The abuse of non-standard behavior or bugs was so prolific that to retain backwards compatibility Microsoft had to create dedicated compatibility shims for specific, widely used applications. And since Microsoft's biggest saving grace in the corporate environment is its backward compatibility for applications, it is quite fanatical about it and it is one of the few companies where an engineering decision can override marketing. You seem to be basing a lot of your assertions on only a superficial understanding of the challenges of software engineering, whereas the people who have been arguing against you have been showing considerably deeper understanding of the subject. That you keep persisting indicates that you don't desire to learn from their greater experience.
It's the reverse: I have quite some experience with marketing. ;-)


That's EXACTLY why I'm skeptic. For any reasonable experienced marketeer, what I say is very believable as well. And MS as a company already demonstrated many times it finds good code and technological novel ideas less important than good marketing.

hbelusca
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by hbelusca »

Microsoft finally refactors their console in Windows 10!! Please see my post there: http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13691 and the links inside.

Z98
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Z98 »

Your statement would be more believable if MS' marketing wasn't so abysmally braindead in so many cases.

Webunny
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:Your statement would be more believable if MS' marketing wasn't so abysmally braindead in so many cases.
Point taken.

So let me refrase that: what they think is good marketing.

gamax92
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Re: what do you think of Windows 10

Post by gamax92 »

[ external image ]
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