older versions of NT as a target for development?

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, drop it in here. (not to be used as a chat/nonsense section)

Moderator: Moderator Team

Dave3434
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:14 am

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Dave3434 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:59 am

i have to agree with someguy there are still 16bit games that ran on windows 9x very well. like doom 1/2 it would be nice to be able to play some retro games on reactos. besides the last time i checked windows xp still had 16bit code in it.

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Z98 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:56 am

And not having built in support for 16bit applications was one of the places the project explicitly decided to break with in terms of compatibility with Server 2k3. By their very nature, these days basically the only secure way to run such applications on a networked machine is to do so inside a VM and firewall the crap out of it. There's literally no concept of multi-user security or even security in general on the platforms these applications were run in, so compromising the machine is almost trivially easy.

Dave3434
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:14 am

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Dave3434 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:52 am

running in vm wire isn't the same as just running it in the os nativly. if there no 16bit code ros is not complete.

jonaspm
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by jonaspm » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:26 am

im not the only one who want 16bit to die in "future" software

¿Why Linux is moving to x64?
¿Why Microsoft is moving to x64?
¿Why ARM and x64 bits processors are being used in recent devices?

¿Why even they exist?
Image

SomeGuy
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:48 am
Location: Marietta, GA

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by SomeGuy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:39 am

In NT based Windows the 16-bit subsystem IS running in a VM. The main security problem is that multiple applications running inside the same VDM can clobber each other. The VMD should have the same permissions to the underlying OS as any other process. You will have the same problem running any multiple programs in a single VM if the guest OS isn't "secure".

But I do recall there were some bad OS hacks to make the VDM run at acceptable speeds on machines in the NT 3.1 days, and I doubt that architecture has been enhanced much since then.

A bigger problem for ReactOS is that the only way to be compatible with Windows 3.1 is essentially to BE Windows 3.1. Windows NT, WABI, OS/2, DESQView X, and even early versions of Wine worked by using actual Windows 3.1 in a VDM with some core files replaced or modified.

Since the 64 bit versions of Windows omit the 16-bit VDM software it seems like a reasonable thing to omit going forwards. But if anyone is insane enough to write one they are welcome to do so!
jonaspm wrote:¿Why Linux is moving to x64?
¿Why Microsoft is moving to x64?
Good question, the only advantage to 64-bit is that it can access more memory - and 32-bit Linux doesn't even have that problem. There will always be people who need an infinite amount of ram, but unless your are doing molecular modeling of a nuclear explosion, running an enterprise database, or playing a video game that is more realistic than going outside, then you are doing something horribly wrong if you need more than 4 gigabytes of RAM.

Oh, right the real purpose is to get everyone to purchase the same applications again, just like Apple does.

andreas84
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:09 pm

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by andreas84 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:46 pm

are there vms for 16bit? if they are easy to install it would not be a problem. however i agree that security is more important than 16bit.

Black_Fox
Posts: 1584
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:44 pm
Location: Czechia

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Black_Fox » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:16 pm

SomeGuy wrote:There will always be people who need an infinite amount of ram, but unless your are doing molecular modeling of a nuclear explosion, running an enterprise database, or playing a video game that is more realistic than going outside, then you are doing something horribly wrong if you need more than 4 gigabytes of RAM.
It's not that hard to reach 4 GB of used RAM today. If I want to play Minecraft (haha, such lousy graphics! :-) ) with my friends, I start OS, Minecraft server, Minecraft client, Chrome (to look up any info needed) and use 4-5 GB RAM without much hassle. I agree that normal people won't use that much, though.

Haos
Test Team
Posts: 2954
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:42 am
Contact:

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Haos » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:28 pm

It's not that hard to reach 4 GB of used RAM today. If I want to play Minecraft (haha, such lousy graphics! :-) ) with my friends, I start OS, Minecraft server, Minecraft client, Chrome (to look up any info needed) and use 4-5 GB RAM without much hassle. I agree that normal people won't use that much, though.
Minecraft uses a lot of RAM due to unoptimized handling of game data, plus its JAVA (guess, Jira has the same problem being a JAVA app as well). As for graphics, its worthy to look around:
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/127 ... e-8192012/
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/120 ... -and-more/

Black_Fox
Posts: 1584
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:44 pm
Location: Czechia

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Black_Fox » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:38 pm

I have even better looking shader mod applied to MC than those presented - my comment to graphics was only a joke, sorry about it not being explicit enough. However, there is no up-to-date alternative client (I saw some C/C++ ones some time ago, but not finished) that would have lower RAM requirements. Anyway, I only presented it as an real-world example that is not so unlikely to happen, I have a definite opinion about Java's memory footprint.

jonaspm
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by jonaspm » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:13 pm

Playing a video game that is more realistic than going outside
Man! I love it xD
Image

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Z98 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Don't confuse 64bit versus the actual x86-64 ISA. x86-64 was created to allow x86 to address more memory, true, but it has plenty of additional changes that make it far superior to the original x86 ISA/architecture.

And with respect to support for 16bit applications, no, nostalgia does not constitute a technical reason for why supporting it is important.

Dave3434
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:14 am

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Dave3434 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:52 pm

And with respect to support for 16bit applications, no, nostalgia does not constitute a technical reason for why supporting it is important
nostalgia is a good reason to support 16bit code. :x

milon
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:26 pm

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by milon » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:28 pm

andreas84 wrote:are there vms for 16bit? if they are easy to install it would not be a problem. however i agree that security is more important than 16bit.
I don't know about virtual machines, but DosBox (a free x86 application) is a 16-bit emulator. I've used it a fair bit for nostalgic gaming. You can even install Windows 3.1 in it.
Dave3434 wrote:nostalgia is a good reason to support 16bit code. :x
You'd sacrifice security and a TON of ROS developer time just to play old DOS games? I wouldn't. Just get DosBox and call it a day.

Dave3434
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:14 am

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Dave3434 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:46 am

can i take the 16 bit code in w98 install disc i have and just slip into ros? and i can also install dosbox if it does the job?

Dave3434
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:14 am

Re: older versions of NT as a target for development?

Post by Dave3434 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:48 am

btw doesn't the pentium 2 and early pentium 3 rely on 16bit code still just wondering?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests